Joining Medicine with Clinical Herbalism and Art: Meet Jill Skrabalak

Lisa Belisle: Hello, I'm Dr. Lisa Belisle and you are listening to, or watching, Radio Maine. Today I have with me in the studio, Jill Skrabalak. Nice to have you here today.

Jill Skrabalak: Thank you for having me. Good morning.

Lisa Belisle: Good morning. I usually give some something something, but I couldn't really pick one thing because you have so many different things that you do. You're currently employed by a healthcare organization, but that's just one small piece of all the things that make up who you are.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah. I spend a lot of time during the weekday, typically after work, having some activity, when I'm not with my 14 and 11 year old son driving them to and from soccer or an activity. There are things that really help me feel I'm taking every moment of life and living it to its fullest when possible. So things like piano, dabbling in that, and still a lifelong learner of the Spanish language. And what takes up most of my time is really studying plant medicine. So looking to get a master's in clinical herbalism. I've got four classes left to finish that, and find that very interesting. Not really sure where that's gonna land for me exactly, but that's okay because it's pretty fascinating.

Lisa Belisle: I think I have to start with that because of all the things you just said, and I'm actually deeply intrigued by just about all of them. So I don't know exactly. I'm so excited now. I am not sure where to go, but I think we have to start with that because that is such a commitment, to get that level of education, that kind of depth of knowledge on a topic.

Jill Skrabalak: It is. I'm 53, so I'm just saying that because I felt like, where am I gonna go with this? And I feel like I have to be kind of efficient. This is a second half of my life and I should really be very thoughtful about where I spend my time. And I do feel like I do that. And this felt somewhat frivolous, because I work in primary care, so most physicians aren't going to be referring to an herbalist directly. But at the same time, I felt like following my heart. Ever since I was a kid, I just had interest in plants. We'd go on vacations and I'd always have my field guide and seeing who I could wrangle up to go out and look for a certain flower and things like that. And so I felt like, if not now, when. And I'm finding more and more that there's a big part of the population in primary care and outside of that, they're interested in this and they want supplements or some other alternatives outside of traditional medicine. So I'm okay with kind of sailing in the fog, so to speak, not really knowing where I'm gonna land.

Lisa Belisle: I actually think your timing is great. When I started in family medicine, there weren't that many people who were doing what have now come to be called integrative therapies. Back then it was called alternative, and then it was complementary. But now, as someone in family medicine who works with a lot of ongoing practitioners and learners of different stages, it is fascinating to me how many of them just have kind of a popular knowledge of something in the herbal area. So your timing, even though you're feeling like it's sailing in the fog, I'm really seeing so much more of this discussion now than I ever did in any of the years that I was teaching in the family medicine space.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah, that's good to hear. I think that's true too. I work as a clinical quality specialist. I'm an RN, so I'm not directly working with patients for the last four or five years. And they have given me a project at work where I'm working with patients that have a diabetes diagnosis. And so it's interesting, I'm already seeing opportunities with this plant medicine. For instance, I have someone that I'm working with and, collaborating with a primary care provider of course, this person does not wanna do pharmaceuticals. They have a very high A1C, or blood sugar. And so if this is a way to kind of enter into the conversation in a safe way, looking at it through research articles in a sound way, then why should we not do that?

Lisa Belisle: Absolutely. So now I have to go even further down this path. I think about things like cinnamon, for example, and blood sugar. I think that's pretty widely known. I know there are other things that are less widely known. Tell me what types of things, if you had somebody with diabetes in front of you, what kinds of things would you pursue?

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah, looking at the underlying reasons for the diabetes. So is it stress? Is it nutrition? Those are different ways to come at it. And then support that person with different plants. It's different than looking at just the diabetes and saying, here is cinnamon, and here is, say, Metformin, which is an anti-diabetic medication. Really looking at the person, and how they got there. So it could be someone who has diabetes and, say, has a very stressful lifestyle, would be looking at herbs to help calm and support the nervous system. And then yes, cinnamon has some research around it, and burdock root. I think the thing that would be some of my ideas around that, to support that person. And then really, where I work in primary care, is to look at how big is that population that has actually been studied, to really say and be honest with patients, what's out there. Because that's the part that gets the most challenging, is how big is the sample size and what did they find, and what did they find long term with these patients.

Lisa Belisle: I think that what you're describing is really important. And one of the reasons that maybe some of these integrative modalities haven't been brought more into medicine is that some of our research is still in its early stages. So we don't have great studies on all of these things, and my understanding has always been in part that it's because there's nobody who funds these studies. So the pharmaceutical companies are probably not the ones who are interested in burdock root.

Jill Skrabalak: I'm so glad that you've said that. Yes, very well articulated.

Lisa Belisle: I don't have a problem necessarily with pharmaceutical companies. There's lots of things to talk about there, but they have provided us with lots of wonderful therapies that have helped patients over the years. However, they're probably not the ones who are going to be investigating dandelion or other types of plants and flowers.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah. I think the integration of both. We need them both. They're both effective. I'm grateful for my experiences in emergency medicine and as a more late in primary care, and having that experience of the more traditional medications or approach, and then combined with this, is so wonderful. I just feel like it really helps me understand when someone really needs something for an acute situation versus a chronic situation. And the other thing that's so great about the plants is that, for the most part, there's not a high risk in trying some of these, depending on your past medical history and things like that. So they're pretty gentle.

Lisa Belisle: I also like the language around it. I like the idea of supporting someone, and I like the idea that what we're doing when you're talking about this is more like helping the body come back to what it already knows how to do, which is to heal itself. And that idea that these plants can be our allies. That's so powerful to me, because sometimes in medicine, and again, I think surgery, emergency techniques, all of the things that are within the medical field, we can avail ourselves of, absolutely wonderful. And also can be pretty hard on the system at times. So if you can find something where you can drink a green tea, you can do something that is just part of your life, I think that can be really worthwhile.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah. And the way that a lot of those herbs are prepared, the way I kind of see this unfolding for me, is really having folks prepare their own medicine. So if they like to do teas, if they like to do tinctures, if they like to do both, if they like to take baths, there's many ways you can concoct your own medicine, which in itself I think is therapeutic. And for the mere fact of just slowly taking the time to sip tea is therapeutic. So it's not just the direct, yes, this plant has phytochemicals in it that are going to help, but also the ritual around taking them, I think can lead people back to whole wellness for long periods of time, or maybe throughout their whole lives.

Lisa Belisle: Yeah. And maybe even growing them for some people. When I see a field of echinacea flowers, or coneflowers, I think, wow, I'm feeling healed just by looking at them. So you start with that, and then you put your fingers in the dirt, and you're bringing something along with you. That's so wonderful.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah. Likewise, I joined a community garden last year. Again, what can I do to take advantage of every moment in life without completely overwhelming myself? It's like a tightrope walk, but actually it has given back tenfold. It is the most joyous thing because you can just grow whatever you want. And the medicine that I make at home, like the calendula oil, is from the calendula right from my garden. And my boys have come, and my boys are pretty, I call them Sporty Spice Boys because they're pretty sporty, and they're not gardeners. But they've come with me, and you can see the effects it has on them just to be there and to gather, and to see me making things, and how beautiful the oils come out, and the colors. That's good therapy, that's good stuff.

Lisa Belisle: Yeah. And the relationship with your children. So great on both sides.

Jill Skrabalak: Yes. And they're like my sample size of one. If they have something going on, they're pretty readily okay with me trying things on them. And we've had some really good outcomes too with just basic first aid kind of things, but still there's magic in that.

Lisa Belisle: Yes. I took my daughter, who is 22, to the natural food store, and this was actually a big part of her growing up years. So now when she has cold symptoms, we're at the natural food store, and she's like, could I get some, I'm out of echinacea tincture, and could I get some elderberry syrup to bring back to college with me?

Jill Skrabalak: That feels good.

Lisa Belisle: It really did. I didn't have to bring this up. She's grabbing some cold-season tea, and when my husband had a cough, I'm like, well, here's this honey that's infused with thyme. All the stuff. When people just kind of gravitate towards it themselves.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah, it brings you joy, right? Echinacea is a big one, we go through lots of echinacea. In fact, I was looking at maybe growing that. We use it a lot. And even Cooper, he will partake. There's a couple of things where my experiments have gone mildly off a little bit, but nothing major. He's still willing to be my patient at times.

Lisa Belisle: Well, that's a nice partnership.

Jill Skrabalak: Yes.

Lisa Belisle: So now that you've brought Cooper's name into the mix, we can now let people who are watching or listening know that one of your connections to the Portland Art Gallery is that you are in fact the partner of one of our artists.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah. Cooper Dragonette.

Lisa Belisle: Who is also a really wonderful person. And he gives you full credit for giving him the space to actually move back into art.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah. That's an interesting story. I don't know if he told you, but in short, like many young couples, we were having our first child on the way. This was almost 15 years ago, our first child on the way. And we decided, well, I think it was my idea, he was struggling as a teacher, and it was just, one child on the way, we just bought a house. But he was really unhappy in his job. And I just thought, well, this isn't very fun. So you should leave your job and you should just do what you love. And it was a huge step, and it really wasn't the best time to do it, probably was the worst time to do it, because the market crashed, 2007 into eight, but no regrets, or, interesting years. But yeah, never look back. Not being in the work that you love to do, it just wears on you. You have to become a different person to just survive, to go through it. And so he was just becoming not a happy person, and that's not who he is. So he's never looked back and it's been great. And the Portland Art Gallery has been so wonderful for him. We're glad that he made that move. It's remarkable how much time he can spend at the easel too. The other day he was down there for about six hours straight, just forgets to eat, forgets to drink. He's just still after all these years of painting, just really loves to do that, which is great. That's what you should do then.

Lisa Belisle: Yes. I love the story that he told the last time I spoke with him about turning his music up really loud and having the neighbor come, like, you heard this banging and banging and banging, and he thought it was the music while he was doing his art, and turns out it wasn't the music.

Jill Skrabalak: No.

Lisa Belisle: And the neighbor was not thrilled about the loud music being played that was disturbing his peace.

Jill Skrabalak: No, that never, he really felt embarrassed about that. He's really considerate. Yeah, that never happened ever again.

Lisa Belisle: But there's something about that that I love so much, because I do think it speaks to this idea of kind of getting in the flow and resonating with your life. And I think that you and I both being in kind of traditional healthcare, you have a background as an RN and I'm a family physician, you're doing population health and I'm working with a health system, I think that it's easy to say, well, this person is sick because, I don't know, they smoked, but why do they smoke? What is it about that habit that they needed to keep engaging in? Is there something about their life that caused them to keep reaching for that cigarette, or keep reaching for food that maybe wasn't conducive to good health?

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah. That's the part that I think is so fascinating and that I really like to get into. And then there's different approaches like motivational interviewing, like really helping someone to come out of this ambivalent state, which is really where all the magic happens. We all do things, or want to do things, and then there's this back and forth conversation always happening. Sometimes one's out for a while, sometimes the other, but really to dig down, what's most important and what's holding me back? And to find that desire within to live your best life, your true self type of thing. I think that's fascinating, when working with clients or just family members or children that are struggling with ambivalence.

Lisa Belisle: I wonder how many people realize how deeply they themselves, their wellness and their health, their emotional health, their physical health, is impacted by being in an ongoing work or other situation that really is not resonant with them. I wonder how many people just know that.

Jill Skrabalak: I know, and I feel like I live in an area of the world which I'm so grateful to be on the coast of Maine. I've lived lots of different places across the country, and it's so wonderful and peaceful most of the time, and people are happy and love lots of opportunities. And I know that's not the real world for a lot of people, that to become aware and awakened to that could be pretty frightening because of maybe lack of options. So there's, who's aware, who's kind of, but doesn't wanna really pick their head up, and who's really not aware. I don't know. But I say be bold. Be bold. You got one life, pick your head up.

Lisa Belisle: Well, that's true. And I think that not everybody even has the ability to access other options. So for me, when I think about, honestly, how fortunate I am in so many ways, when I consider other people who don't have that good fortune, I think, well, who am I not to be grateful for and move towards something that brings joy in my life, because I am able to.

Jill Skrabalak: Like a feeling like I kind of owe it to someone a little, or owe it. Yeah.

Lisa Belisle: I think because, if you are getting your master's, and it's making you happy, that happiness that you have is kind of being shared. It's a happiness that you're bringing back to other people. So if you're thinking, well, I have to stick with whatever it is I'm doing because I'm meant to do this, but it's really not making you happy, it kind of makes other people around you miserable.

Jill Skrabalak: That's a great way to look at it, the ripple effect.

Lisa Belisle: For sure. So I don't know. So that's herbalism. Also speaking Spanish and learning Spanish, you're continuing to learn that.

Jill Skrabalak: I really wanna talk to another artist in the gallery. So Carlos, who's the reason—

Lisa Belisle: I love that there's yet another connection.

Jill Skrabalak: There's another art.

Lisa Belisle: You wanna be able to speak with Carlos in Spanish? So you are learning more Spanish.

Jill Skrabalak: I mean, I'm teasing. Carlos Gamez de Francisco. I only have one other piece of art in our house that I just adore, other than my husband's, and it's his piece. And it totally caught me off guard. Everything he has is just gorgeous. I love the botanicals in it, and the female elegance, and I just think they're astounding. But the Spanish, sure, it'd be great to speak with him in Spanish. I need a few more lessons. But as a kid, I've been learning since I was a kid. We have close family friends in Spain. My sister studied abroad. And I think it's a beautiful language. The Spanish people are beautiful people and so proud, proud people. And yeah, we're hoping to go in June, the whole family, because I love that connection to continue with my kids, that they stay connected to the family friends we have over there.

Lisa Belisle: And so which part of Spain will you be going to?

Jill Skrabalak: Well, they're in Madrid. So Madrid, and then we were hoping in June to go to San Sebastian, and Bilbao, north. There happens to be a small race, the Tour de France, happening.

Lisa Belisle: Yeah. Just a small—

Jill Skrabalak: A small bike race. Yeah. Cooper's crazy about cycling, and I'm crazy about Spain, and we have lots of reasons to go. Haven't purchased tickets yet, but the motivation to speak more Spanish, because every time I see my Spanish friends, they're asking me, how's your Spanish? And so hopefully this time I can answer in a complete sentence or two.

Lisa Belisle: Well, I find that for me it's getting past the, like, I wanna be perfect right out of the gate. I want people to be able to understand me, and I wanna be fluent, like a native speaker. And so I can understand a lot of what's going on around me, but I don't wanna pipe up.

Jill Skrabalak: I think that's what the red wine's for.

Lisa Belisle: Oh, that's a good way to look at it.

Jill Skrabalak: Yes. Just one glass of red wine.

Lisa Belisle: Just disinhibit that frontal lobe. That's right. And keep you from not wanting to explore. Well, you know what I love about what you're saying. When my son went to Guatemala when he was 17 and worked with Safe Passage, and then he took some time also in college to go to Madrid, and then he traveled to South America with his now wife before he went on to medical school. And you better believe I was every single one of those places. I was like, yep, I'll be there. Yep, I'm there. So we found ways to connect. And you're right, having friends in Spain and having it be a really personal reason to make those intersections, I think is very important.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah. I think it really can put them on a track for seeing life outside of a small town in Maine, and the world's a much bigger place. And being uncomfortable, because it is uncomfortable. I remember the first time I went abroad, and it's a good uncomfortable, and the world's much bigger, and it just helps someone, I think it helps you find your place in the world a little bit more. That's an ongoing process, but where do I wanna be? Where do I wanna go? And to be able to travel, that's a pretty quick ticket to get there. And I would also just love for him, I'm talking about the older one now because he's 14, to, similar to your son, maybe study or stay there just for a couple of weeks in the summer, to find independence and be comfortable alone. It's a safe environment. So keep my fingers crossed on that. We're working towards that. He's not so excited about the idea, that's why I'm, but he's 14 and comfortable at home, so. Well, there's time.

Lisa Belisle: I remember when Campbell graduated from high school and he was 17, and Safe Passage wouldn't let him come work for them until he was 18, but he went down when he was 17. My 17 year old son, who sometimes could remember to bring both shoes on his feet, because he left, and he goes down to Guatemala and he is not even of age yet. And for me as a parent, it was this enormous leap of faith. Like, I hope there is some spirit out there that is paying attention.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah. Like if he's not remembering his shoes, how is he remembering to catch the bus to take him to—

Lisa Belisle: Yes.

Jill Skrabalak: I feel like they know a lot in there, and they're just relying on us a lot, and the home environment.

Lisa Belisle: So, to be clear, he has now worked his way into a responsible, presumably responsible, because he's now working as an emergency room resident.

Jill Skrabalak: Oh, okay. Yes.

Lisa Belisle: He probably has his shoes then. He now, I think, wears both shoes. And, no, Campbell, you are a wonderful individual. I don't in any way want you to think I'm being critical. I'm just describing this interesting developmental process of not only being the person who is exploring another country, particularly at a young age, but also the need as a parent to have that happen.

Jill Skrabalak: But letting go of that.

Lisa Belisle: Well, we'll have to talk again in a few years and see where things stand with you at that point.

Jill Skrabalak: Sounds good. Yeah.

Lisa Belisle: So the other thing that I know has happened for you is that you've recently brought a piano back into your life.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah, so I have, my mom passed away in March of 22, so it'll be a year next month already. And my mother was, I'm a lot like my mother, and I like to just dabble in a lot of things. I would call her the quiet little artist. She also liked to draw and paint and things, but she was the home manager, or a homemaker I guess you would've called it during her time. So she didn't spend a lot of time doing those things. And maybe that's why I do what I do, which is, like to stay busy and absorb and try new things. And so one of those things is her piano. So she had a small baby grand piano. And my dad, you know, my sister and I both played when we were little, and my father had said, you really should take the piano. And I was thinking something smaller, because this is a piano in upstate New York, and it's not cheap to have it delivered, and where am I going to put it? And if I move, you think about all these things, like a piano to follow me the rest of my life. And so I almost didn't take it. And then I did, and I'm so glad I did, because it's inspired me to play piano again. And it's just a lovely sound to hear in the house. The boys have both taken lessons off and on, and it doesn't sound perfect at all, which is kind of the sweetness of it. It's just to hear different people tinkering on it. And when I sit down to play, it's like one of those few things. Like we talk about Cooper, I talk about Cooper in the studio where he's just painting for hours, and this is like one of the few things I can do that, I'm not thinking about anything else. And I love that. And I don't know what it really sounds like, nor do I really care at this point. But it's just very relaxing, and it helps me feel really close to my mom. And we also have some neighbors in the house that play, young boys that come over, and I love that they just walk in, they're like, hello? And they'll sit down and play, and some of them are pretty amazing. It's a fun thing to have in the house, so I'm glad for it for so many reasons.

Lisa Belisle: Yeah. I love the connection to your mother too.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah, it really is. I have lots of things of hers, sweaters or jewelry, and we had very different tastes. So I have just a few different things that mean a lot to me. But the piano is really, because that's where she sat, and her fingers touched the keys. And I do feel that she's there when I'm sitting. Especially when I'm struggling, I'll just start struggling and start to lose a lot of grace in my piano playing. And I'll think of her, and it's like, okay, just bring it back. Bring it back. Just have fun. Just enjoy.

Lisa Belisle: So she's still with you.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah. A hundred percent.

Lisa Belisle: Well, Jill, I really appreciate your taking the time to talk with me today, as a sort of fellow wellness colleague and also creative spirit. I've heard about you for such a long time through your husband, Cooper Dragonette, and it's always a different thing to actually, you're like the person. You're like some mythical being that exists outside of our consciousness, and here you are made manifest.

Jill Skrabalak: Yes, same here.

Lisa Belisle: It's really been wonderful to get to know you today.

Jill Skrabalak: It's been really nice too. It's been really nice talking with you, and I didn't realize that we had similar interests, so it was nice talking about those things. And I'll keep you up to date of what's happening in the plant world, and in the teenage world, and all that.

Lisa Belisle: And in all the worlds.

Jill Skrabalak: Yeah. In all the worlds. Yeah.

Lisa Belisle: We'll stay in touch. Okay. I've been speaking with my new friend Jill Skrabalak, and I hope that you are able to happen across this lovely individual at one of the upcoming Portland Art Gallery openings, where perhaps you might also meet her wonderful husband, Cooper Dragonette. I'm Dr. Lisa Belisle, and you have been listening to or watching Radio Maine. Thank you, Jill.

Jill Skrabalak: Thank you very much.