Building a Life—and a Workplace—that Supports People | Amanda Rand

Lisa Belisle: Hello, I'm Dr. Lisa Belisle and you are listening to or watching Radio Maine, our video podcast where we explore and celebrate creativity and the human spirit. And today we are here with a longtime Maine resident who I'm actually pretty fascinated to know that I haven't run across before because we both have deep roots in Maine. This is Amanda Rand. She is the president and CEO of Spinnaker Trust and grew up in Falmouth just across the border from Yarmouth. So welcome. Nice to meet you considering that we've been kind of paddling in the same pond all these years.

Amanda Rand: I know. Thank You. Nice to meet you too. It's really lovely to be with you this morning.

Lisa Belisle: I'm loving so many things about your background because even though you grew up in Falmouth and you're living down the street from where you grew up and you and your high school sweetheart, your husband now, live with his family down the street, which all sounds very familiar like to me as somebody also grew up in Yarmouth and lives down the street from parents and such. But you actually went away to Duke, you went to Harvard Law School, you had this whole other life and then you came back to Maine. So tell me about what brought you back to Maine.

Amanda Rand: I guess it starts with what made me leave. When you grow up in a small town as you well know, it's all you know and you can sort of easily be a big fish in a small pond. And I thought, well, I really want to go and see what else is out there. I want to see another part of the country, but I don't want to go too far. So Duke was a great fit. Growing up, my mom, she still is, is a sports fanatic and she to this day has a massive crush on Coach K and would watch all the Duke basketball games and we had pretty strict TV rules growing up. No TV after six at night unless I was huddled in her room with her watching basketball or whatever. She happened to be watching Jeopardy, you name it. So we watched a lot of Duke basketball in the early 90s. Duke was phenomenal. They were winning back to back championships and my mom would say, look at those like kids at the game. They're all brilliant and they're acting like fools and having so much fun. And I thought, well, that could be a fun place to spend four years. And so I was lucky enough to go to Duke. And after being there for four years, as much as I wanted to get away from me and I couldn't wait to get back to New England. So applying to law schools, I only applied to schools near Maine in New England, wanted to be close by. And then I thought, well, I'll work in Boston for a few years and I'll get some experience and we'll save some money and then we'll move home. And that turned into actually only one year my husband and I, the same week we found out we were expecting our oldest child, our son, Pierce Atwood said they were looking for a trust and estates lawyer and I thought there's not always openings for trust and estates lawyers when you want them because it's a little bit of a smaller niche, smaller community. And so we hightailed it home. We thought we're going to have a baby, all our families at home, all our supports at home. Let's just get home.

Lisa Belisle: I'm loving this kind of visual of you and your mom. Did you paint your faces blue? Don't they do that for the Blue Devils? Isn't that-

Amanda Rand: They do.

Lisa Belisle: Am I correct? Is it the Duke Blue Devils?

Amanda Rand: Yeah, that's the Blue Devils. I mean, we camped out for games when I was in school. Actually, my mom and I had a wonderful trip. My mom's friends with Joanne Palumbo McCauley, who was the coach at UMaine and then the women's coach at Duke. And we were fortunate enough that Joanne a few years ago got us tickets to one weekend, a men's game and a women's game. So we went down, we stayed at the Washington Duke Inn. Mom and I went to both the games. We got on the court. She went to a practice, a women's practice. She was in heaven. So we still have that bond and my parents still watched every dick basketball game. I mean, they will text me after the game. I'm like, "I'm busy or I was asleep." I will watch, but they're rabid.

Lisa Belisle: That's such a special thing to have with a parent is that kind of connection. I mean, my sisters were both basketball players and they're sort of between my age and your age. So we definitely were very aware of Joanne Palumbo McCauley and I mean, Maine really sort of exploded on the women's basketball scene, but then I know that you're talking separately, Duke, was it the men's team or the women's team that you would watch?

Amanda Rand: Mostly the men's. I mean, back in the early '90s, you couldn't watch women's basketball or TV that easily like you can now. So yeah, mostly men's and she was right. It was a fun place to be for four years. Everyone around me was super smart. I was very quickly a small fish in a much bigger pond and that was good for me. And I learned a ton and made some nice connections and it really set me up. It was a gift. It set me up for the rest of my life.

Lisa Belisle: It's interesting because I think Falmouth, I mean, Maine has some really great school systems and Falmouth is one of them. I love that you chose, so Falmouth colors, the Clippers are blue. I like that you just continued that at least for a few more years anyway, but do you think it's a common thing to go to a school like Falmouth, Yarmouth, Cape Elizabeth, and then go away to one of these other schools that's much bigger and has a lot of talent coming in and feel that small big fish, small pond and now small pond or bigger pond small fish?

Amanda Rand: I got to think so. I mean, when I graduated from Falmouth High School, there were 63 kids in my graduating class, right? There's now like 160 or something like that. So when I say small pond, it was really small. So even to go to Duke, which is not that big of a school where there's 6,000 undergrads felt just enormous to me. And 160 isn't a big school either, or I don't know what Yarmouth is at now or Kate, but I don't think they're much, if anything, they're probably a little smaller. And I think any kid would probably be lying if they said they didn't feel a little bit of imposter syndrome or trepidation about going off to a big place. I think those schools equip the kids to do incredibly well wherever they end up. I used to do interviewing for Duke actually for kids that were applying and that's what I would always tell them is be aware that you are qualified. You are ready for this. You can do this. Don't be so intimidated. I mean, go in humbly, but know that you have been set up for success and these kids will come from fancy schools and fancy backgrounds and you name it, but put your nose down and work hard and you will do really well.

Lisa Belisle: I think that's one of the reasons I asked that question because having talked to a lot of people over the years, very intelligent people of all different ages, but especially younger people coming from other parts of Maine that want to connect on the national level, this feeling of being an imposter I think is not unusual and yet we really equip our children well, I think, to do well on a larger stage generally.

Amanda Rand: That's been one of the wonderful things too about coming home and being part of a community that can talk to younger professionals, younger students and say, "You can go and you can do anything and then you can choose to come home to Maine. I hope you do. I hope you come back here and use your skills here because we desperately need them and want them." And so the kids that go off to these elite institutions, they inevitably do really well. They're hard workers. They've come from a background I think that has equipped them to do well.

Lisa Belisle: Well, this leads me into the next set of things I'm thinking about and that is the work that you do with Spinnaker Trust and the culture that you've been building there, which is a culture of diversity and inclusion and really trying to bring forward people's voices so that you can represent the greater community, but in doing so, you're going to need to hire great people and you're going to want to hire hopefully people who not only grew up in Maine, but grew up elsewhere. So as part of that, do you feel like some of the learnings that you yourself had when you left, went to Duke, went to Harvard Law, came back, does that translate into an awareness that helps you with hiring?

Amanda Rand: That's a good question. When we are looking to add to our team, obviously the most basic thing is their skillset, but I would say very close to that is their work ethic/demeanor/emotional intelligence. That is very high on our list for what we're looking for, for a host of reasons. One, it's just better to work with people who have an awareness about themselves and their coworkers and can get along in sort of any environment and can kind of go with the flow. But importantly, we're working with families on really intimate, challenging issues. When you start talking about people's finances and what they want to happen with those finances down the road, we're working with multi-generational families, we're working with families that don't always get along, most of them do, but not all of them. And so people who have the ability to read the room and understand how to navigate those types of challenging, personal, sensitive conversations is as important, frankly, as their background and skillset, because you can have all of the training in the world and all the technical knowledge in the world, but if you can't relate that and communicate that to somebody at whatever level they need it to be to receive it, it's not worth very much, right? I think my background and my focus on the whole team member and the whole team is something that has translated into us by and large having really wonderful folks work for us that really get what we're trying to do and helping families with their wealth.

Lisa Belisle: For people who don't know what estates and trust, I mean, I'm hoping everybody does because everybody has enough wealth that that's going to happen, but maybe not everybody. It's hard to say who's watching, but what does that sort of mean at a granular level? What types of things are you doing to help people with their planning?

Amanda Rand: So Spinnaker, primarily we're an investment management shop. So we are custodian and caring for their wealth and managing it for them. The skillset that I think where Spinnaker really excels is I am one of five or so trust and estates attorneys that are part of our staff that take a very holistic look at not just, how is your portfolio doing and how has performance been and what do you own and what have we sold? And that is crucial to what we're doing. And then we have this whole team of people that we wrap around our clients that say, "Okay, we're going to work on a financial plan. We're going to look at your goals. When do you want to retire? When are kids going to college?" That sort of thing and where's this wealth going to end up and how do you want to steward that and how do you want your kids to think about stewarding that? So a large focus at Spinnaker is around first and foremost implementing or helping to implement plans by working with our clients. I call them the real lawyers because I'm a recovering lawyer. I don't actively practice law anymore. We work with their attorneys and accountants to actually implement plans that do what they want as far as protecting their children, grandchildren, helping to educate them. And of course a big part of what we're doing also is trying to reduce the estate tax or gift tax burden for clients. So there are a number of mechanisms that we can use and work with clients, especially ones that are charitably inclined to do greater benefit for both their family, their communities, and perhaps reduce the tax burden down the road. So we never let the tax tail wag the dog, if you will, but it's certainly part of what we're factoring in and how we're working with clients. So Spinnaker's role in all this is really come up with the ideas, pressure test things with clients, would this type of trust work for you? What do you think? Get them pretty far down the road so that then when we get the lawyers and accountants involved, you're not starting from scratch. At Spinnaker with wealth management, you see your clients a lot more often than attorneys and accountants do, mostly because you're not paying us by the 10th of an hour to clients will come and talk to us and share their most important financial concerns with us in a way that they're not going to pick up the phone necessarily and talk to their attorney about. And so we are able to then funnel that work back out to the people that need to help implement it because we're seeing our clients three, four, five times a year at least.

Lisa Belisle: So you mentioned the nonprofit and sort of this idea of transfer of wealth not only to the next generation, but also into charitable places. Talk to me about that, because I understand that nonprofit work is important to you.

Amanda Rand: Yes, it is. That's something that was instilled to me very early on. My mom, she didn't work outside of the home for pay, but she did a tremendous amount of volunteer work. And so that's something that's been really important to me as well and our clients by and large are incredibly charitably inclined too. So we help do everything from facilitating annual gifts, making those in the form of stock or what have you, to all the way down the line to more sophisticated planning like charitable lead trust or charitable remainder trust. And I won't get in the weeds about all those mechanisms, but there are specific types of vehicles that we can use that help really leverage a client's charitable intent and goals in a way that allows them to do more for charity, more for their family and combine those goals. And we've seen clients frankly use charitable giving vehicles to really bring the next generation together, to have them work together on how to give money away to their community. And that's been really fulfilling both for us, but also for the parent generation who put things like that in place, keeping siblings working together that live in different parts of the country, different parts of the world and working on these charitable goals together has been a wonderful vehicle for a number of our families to stay close.

Lisa Belisle: You talked about your mother and her involvement in nonprofits. Do you have a specific, aside from what you do at Spinnaker, do you have a specific set of interest yourself?

Amanda Rand: I would say my life experiences have really guided where I spend my time in the nonprofit space. So for example, we were speaking before we started, I lost my sister when I was a teenager. She died in a car accident very young and fast forward 15 years or so and that was really the impetus for me to get involved at the Center for Grieving Children having been a grieving child myself and seeing the incredible work that the center was doing. I knew I wasn't going to probably be a good fit to be a facilitator at the center. I was too afraid I'd bring my own grief and baggage to children and families, but being on the board there was incredibly rewarding and helping them further and grow their mission was wonderful. So that's an example. And then I've most recently in the last eight, nine years or so, have gotten very involved at Maine Medical Center and Maine Health. When my youngest was born, I suffered a stroke and was incredibly lucky to have been brought to Maine Medical Center. They were able to remove a clot that had formed during labor and I had a full recovery and that'll instill gratitude in you pretty quickly for the team that was able to do that. And so that has led to me getting more involved at the hospital and also in the American Heart Association. So I'd say my ... I talk to my team a lot at Spinnaker about the importance of getting involved in the community, but I also tell them, don't pick an organization just to check it off your box like, "Oh, Amanda said I should get on a board." Here's one. Make sure you choose something that is meaningful to you, whether it's in the arts or it's theater or a museum or a school or whatever it is, like choose something that speaks to you because there is work involved in the nonprofit work and if you find that connection, it can really add to your life and make you feel an even bigger part of the community around you. So for me, that has really guided where I want to spend my time and where I hope I can make a contribution.

Lisa Belisle: It's so interesting to me when I talk to people about their backgrounds and I think obviously the longer that any of us walk the planet, the more likely it is that something is going to happen to us that is really life changing. But then sometimes I talk to people like yourself who have had probably a stacking up of life changing things in a way that I'm always astounded by how resilient people have been able to be and yet still carry with them what happened in their past. So you've already described these two very personal things that happened in your life. You also were joining Spinnaker in 2008 at a really pivotal time. There was a lot of shifting that was external to you, but somehow you kind of turned things around, eventually really bolstered this organization and went in a different and great direction with it. So do you think that your personal experiences of working through challenge contributed to your ability to move this organization forward?

Amanda Rand: I hope so, right? I mean, you always hope that when you face something challenging in your life that you grow from it and hopefully take some positive from it. And for me, I think it has made me a more empathetic leader. I know very well, unfortunately too well, what it means when something is going wrong at home, whether it's a health event or a loss, you name it. And so I have tried with our team at Spinnaker to really take the long view of, we are a team here, you are going to have moments in your life where you're being pulled, whether by a sick parent, your own sickness or illness, you're a child's struggles and all of that is frankly more important than what is happening at Spinnaker day to day. And so if we can take care of our team when they are going through something hard and challenging in their personal life and be there for them, I've seen it. They show back up for Spinnaker and their team and they pay that forward. And so you can take a short term view of some of this stuff and say, "Oh, this isn't a good fit and we're going to move on. " But I have found certainly, and I'm not alone at Spinnaker, it's an ethos we have at the firm that we have to take care of each other in large part before we can take the best care of our clients and our community. I think certainly my background has informed how I show up at Spinnaker for sure. It is crucially important to me that our team know we're going to work hard, we're going to do the best job we can for our clients and we're going to take care of each other and otherwise it's, I mean, why are we doing this? I mean, I talk to my team a lot. We spend more time with each other than our families most days of the week. So let's make that a supportive ... I mean, it's not all unicorns and rainbows. There's hard days and there's hard work to be done, but by and large, our team has each other's backs and supports each other no matter what we're going through and that's ...

Lisa Belisle: So you and I, I think share a love of reading and I was very interested to hear that you enjoy in particular reading about leadership, personal growth, books on team culture, storytelling, perspective. And of course I have to learn more because I love all of those things as well. And I also am really enjoying this conversation in part because I've been in leadership roles and while I love the theory, I also know what it takes to bring theory to day to day and it seems like you might be one of these people who's able to do this to some extent. So talk to me about some of the influences in story and in reading that you've brought into your work.

Amanda Rand: I have, I would say in the last 10 years, rediscovered a love of reading. All I did was read for school and law school and I actually got so good at skimming that when I would go to read a novel, I'd miss chunks because I had skimmed ... I'm like, "Wait, who's Paul?" Then I'd have to go back a few pages. So for a while, reading for pleasure wasn't those words didn't go together for me, but I'd say in the last 10 years or so, I've reconnected with that and I love alternating between ... Well, first of all, I keep a list like most people do. I don't have a special app. It's just in my notes app on my phone of, if you recommend a book to me, it'll go in there. I don't know if I'll read it this year. I might not read it for three or four years, but I'll get to it and I will knock off those. So I take recommendations from folks. I'll pull a list of, this was President Obama's reading list from last year, or this was the Times list of beach reads, or this was some leadership books that spoke to Warren Buffet. And I'll take all of those and I'll kind of knock them off here and there and I've definitely taken stuff away from all those different genres, maybe not my beach reads. I don't take a lot of leadership lessons from those. Those are just fun. But from the leadership books, hearing about how people in different ways motivate the team around them and empower them and enable them. I try to take tidbits of that just like you do when you're around other leaders. That's been a great fun of the nonprofit work I do as well as I get to see leaders of other organizations and how are they motivating the people around them? What are they reading? One of the books I read recently was from someone at Maine Health that said, "Oh, this is a book that spoke to me. " And so I try to implement those lessons. I'm sure I know I'm not perfect at that, but making sure that I'm constantly growing in that capacity is important to me as well.

Lisa Belisle: So are there any books that have risen to the top for you?

Amanda Rand: I mentioned on this book that was recommended to me by Andy Mueller, who's the CEO of Maine Health. And again, this was a good example. It was probably three years ago that he recommended it and I just read it a month or so ago, but it was patients come second and the title was intended to be kind of shocking like, "What do you mean? Every patients are, you're a health system, that should be the most important thing that you do. " The idea being that you need to take care of the care team and they need to feel supported and empowered and as though they're well functioning before they can take good care of patients. And that really spoke to me because we talk about that at Spinnaker a lot, like we have to take care of each other before we can take good care of our clients. And so if you have a toxic work environment, it's awfully hard to take good care of your patients, clients, customers, whatever that is.

Lisa Belisle: Well, that's actually great to hear that Maine Health is thinking about that that way because I trained at Maine Health, I worked at Maine Health. I have a son who works now for Maine Health and I do think that you're right, it's a shocking idea because we went from one end of the spectrum where patients definitely did not come first and there was the Doctor's God model that was so common for so many years and so damaging, still persists in some ways to all the way to the other side, which is do anything you can for any patient at any time, which as a patient I don't have a problem with, but as a care team member and leader, it makes it really hard and it really can lead to burnout and it really did lead to burnout, especially during COVID. So I love that you've got the CEO of Maine's largest health system who's saying, "Oh no, we need to think about this differently." Because I think that those extremes didn't work and I think has led healthcare down a path that has not been really workable

Amanda Rand: For anybody.

Lisa Belisle: For anybody. Patients, Community, leaders, providers. Yeah. So that's also the other thing about what people are reading because it gives them like a little look into their psyche and where they're coming from. Another thing that I think you and I share, you and I were talking about Joanne Parent and a piece that I know that you have that came from originally the Portland Art Gallery and I love that your daughter was like, "I would like the other piece by Joanne Parent so I can put it in my room, this love of original art." So talk to me about that

Amanda Rand: Yeah, that's also I would say a fairly new in the last decade or so and probably that's just stage of life and being able to afford the pieces that you want in your life. But I have, I coveted her work for quite some time actually and I was stalking the Portland Art Gallery online to see what was there and I was going through all of her things and I finally convinced my husband that now's the time to make this investment. And her work is, it just spoke to me the light, the positivity that literally radiates from it spoke to me. But there's so many artists there and that was sort of the first piece that wasn't something we just bought at a charity auction or something like that, that we had said, "This speaks to us personally and we want to make that investment." And so it's led to a couple other things. We got a local artist actually to paint a picture of our dog who we just lost in the last year that was my daughter's best friend and we had them paint a picture of her and then when we went to pick it up we saw she had a picture of my mother-in-law's diner, my mother-in-law owns Becky's diner, she's Becky. That is really my claim to fame. We should have started with that. And so we picked up that piece of art and so we're slowly building a collection of things that aren't just sort of haphazard things that were on auction but that really speak to us and having that come from a local artist that spent that time and investment in the piece has been really fun.

Lisa Belisle: I don't think we should lead with your mother-in-law's accomplishments because you're very accomplished in your own way. So I'm glad we didn't do that, but I think it is really great. Again, You and I were already talking about two degrees of separation in Maine, not seven. And yeah, Becky's Diner, that's a Portland, it's a Maine landmark everybody knows.

Amanda Rand: And she's a boss woman, right? I mean, she started that business as a single mom with six young kids and believed in herself. And so the message that is sent to me, to her daughters, to her granddaughters, her sons and grandsons as well. But that has been so empowering. I've had so many people, women, I've been blessed over my career to have examples like that. All the women at the firms I worked at before joining Spinnaker, my mentor and my leader and supervisor was a woman and a mother. And that definitely made an impression on me. And we had children fairly young for someone that was in early stages of our career. I started practicing when I was 25 and our son came when I was 27 and we didn't put that off. And I think a large part of that was that the women that I looked up to, they had families, they had children and they were making it work. So that's been really important to me. And my mother-in-law's just a huge example of getting stuff done and believing in yourself and making it work.

Lisa Belisle: And I think what you're describing is something that is incredibly important that it is very possible to be a woman and succeed in the professional world while you are raising children. But it is also very important to not only have mentorship role models but also have support because one of the challenges that I know happened to me early on in medicine was that I was also going through having children while I was in training as an early clinician. And what I was told at the time was, no, you can't do both. You're going to have to choose one or the other. And I love hearing that you were a few years behind me in a different profession and they were like, "No, you can do this and we are already doing this. " And so I love that that's where we have been evolving to and hopefully are continuing to evolve for the sake, not only of our daughters, but also of our sons because it really is a whole family thing that needs to shift when we're talking about change.

Amanda Rand: That's exactly right. When I had my youngest, I was the first Spinnaker employee to have a maternity leave to have a baby. At the time our maternity policy was really just short-term disability.That was it and I was happy to have it. I was able to take lots of time unpaid off and we made that work. And fast forward now, my daughter's almost 15, 14 years later and I have a coworker now, a male coworker. His first child was born in December. His wife took a few months off. They've had some family help. She had to go back to work and he's off this month and taking his leave because now we offer 12 weeks of paid leave and you can take it intermittently. You can take it. I would say most of our female colleagues that have a child, they end up taking it right away after the child's born. But we've got lots of our male colleagues who will take a couple weeks in and then they'll take like this a month or so after their wife goes back to work to prolong the time before the child has to go into daycare or get a nanny. And it's wonderful. And that progression has been fun to be a part of and to push forward. And I can't take the full credit for that. A lot of it is our younger team members being like, "Hey, what's Spinnaker doing here? You can be more generous. You can make this work and I'm committing to you and I would love that commitment from Spinnaker for the first few months after having a child." And it's been wonderful.

Lisa Belisle: And I think that there's a reality to that approach that is important to recognize that what unfortunately historically happened was people would take time off and then there was nobody there to do the work and then it made everybody upset with the person who took the time off. I think it still happens unfortunately, but if you plan for it and you know somebody is going to have a medical issue, it's a planned medical issue, somebody's going to have a baby and maybe it's planned, maybe it's not planned, but we know it's going to happen. But you say like, "We're going to need to make adjustments as to how the work gets done. We're going to know that this is in our future. We're going to figure out how we're going to pay for it. " Planning for that as a normal life stage. I think that-

Amanda Rand: And one to be celebrated actually.

Lisa Belisle: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, in the case of the children, maybe not the medical issues, but yes, I think that that's where we get into trouble is when we've tried to sort of legislate forward something that there's no structure in place to support and then it just becomes a problem. It's always, "Well, that person, they did this and that's not fair." It's not true. I mean, it's a cultural thing that we're trying to move forward. I think that you're recognizing that and I've had the same experience with younger clinicians who will say, "Well, why doesn't your healthcare system offer additional paid leave?" And I'm like, "That's a great question. We should really be talking about this and we really should be planning this in the future." So I think it's fantastic that this is where we are going toward.

Amanda Rand: It is. And I should say we're lucky in a way in our business that it is easier to cover for each other. It's not shift work. It's not like this won't get done if this number of people aren't here. Yes, it might create some additional work for folks for a limited period of time, but I am aware of the business we're in makes it a little bit easier to be generous.

Lisa Belisle: Yeah. And that is fair. I mean, when I've worked with people who are, if I have a neurosurgeon who happens to be the only one in New England who does this very specific procedure, then that person taking time off is not going to be as easy to cover as maybe somebody that's in a large family medicine practice. Yes, certainly there are different things that happen within industries and organizations, but I still think that, as I said, it's sort of the planning for it that for me makes all the difference.

Amanda Rand: Yeah. And once you've decided that this is how you want to have things work for your team, then it falls into place because you do the work, as you say, to plan for it. It's making that decision I think that this is how we're going to do it. And so these are the steps we need to do to plan for it.

Lisa Belisle: So for you, anything that you see in your future that we haven't talked about that's kind of new, interesting, intriguing to you, surprising, a direction you want to head in?

Amanda Rand: I'm so happy and grateful for the life my family has been able to create here in our hometown, to be able to do what I love to do right here in Spinnaker and right here in Maine has been so rewarding. And so I think as I'm definitely on the back half of my career, what I'd like to spend time doing is developing the people behind me. How can I support that next generation of leadership at Spinnaker? We have so many talented people coming up that are doing incredible work right now and being, to the extent I can, a mentor to them and helping them grow their careers and their leadership skills, that's something that I would like to focus on as I wind down, long, wind down, long, long, wind down. And then on the nonprofit side, that work has been incredibly fulfilling to me. I would like to continue to do that in the future and find the next organization that speaks to me and that I can be of some help too. That would be wonderful.

Lisa Belisle: Well, I am just blown away by the conversation that we've had. I mean, I'm thrilled that you and I have finally met because we've probably passed each other on 95 so many times over the last decades of our lives, but I love that you're open to whatever the next step is and also I can hear this intergenerational thing that you're bringing forward from your mother, probably her mother that we haven't even talked about, but your husband's mother and I really appreciate that you're doing that for Maine and for the community. So thank you for talking with me about it today and for being here.

Amanda Rand: Well, thank you. This was lovely. Nice way to spend the morning. I appreciate it.

Lisa Belisle: Thank you. I'm Dr. Lisa Belisle. You've been listening to or watching Radio Maine, our video podcast where we explore and celebrate creativity and the human spirit. Today we've been exploring this with my Falmouth neighbor across the border from Yarmouth, Amanda Rand. She is the president and CEO of Spinnaker Trust. I encourage you to find out more about Spinnaker Trust if you happen to be in the market, or maybe if you're a young woman or man who has this sort of skillset, perhaps you want to look up Amanda and her group because who knows, maybe they're hiring in the future, but I also hope that we can convince Amanda to come back to the Portland Art Gallery and to one of our openings the first Thursday of every month. It would be great to have you in that space again.

Amanda Rand: Love it. I would love it.

Lisa Belisle: All right, fantastic. For now, I'm Dr. Lisa Belisle. Thank you for joining us and have a wonderful day.