Jennifer Gutekunst: Maine Entrepreneur

Today I have with me in the studio, Jennifer Gut Kunt, who is the co-owner of New England Treads and the Wooden Scream Door Company. It's great to have you here today. Thank you for having me. I'm very impressed with the fact that you have multiple, sort of, um, first of all two businesses that you co-own, but also you have had multiple lives, um, and multiple sort of creative things that you've done with your business identity and your professional life. So how did we get here, ? How did you make the choice to, to have these very lovely niche products that you're putting out into the world, and also just continuing to evolve as a business person? Of Course. Um, well, my husband Neil and I moved up here to Maine in 2019. Um, we had come for a vacation, um, in the prior year and had a really hard time leaving. And when we returned back to suburban Philadelphia, we kind of sat down one night and Neil had just kind of looked at me and he is like, what, what are we doing here? You know, is are we working for two weeks of vacation every year so we can go back to the place we actually wanna be? Why don't we make it happen? And it was one of those nights where it's like, yeah, you're right. I would love to do that one day. That's a pipe dream. Um, but Neil really worked to make that happen, and we, um, actually found our first business, which is New England Treads. We found that online, um, and moved up here in 2019 and began running that. Um, prior to that, Neil, um, was an attorney and I worked in organizational development as an HR analyst, which I still do. Um, so those skills transited nicely into owning your own business, uh, finance background, knowing the rules. Um, so we, um, got treads up and running, and then a year and a half later we purchased Wooden screen door company. Um, and we've had that for a year and a half, and we're cruising, like right along with that as well. There's a lot of different threads that I'm interested in following here. I think the one I have to go with first is the organizational development. Tell me about that. Sure. So, um, I began my human resources career at a local community hospital. Um, hospital's, a great place to kind of cut your teeth in the HR world because rules are very important there. You have licenses, it sometimes is kind of a life and death, um, scenario there. So really learning that sense of urgency and the sense of professionalism. Um, we were in North Carolina based outside of Camp Lejeune. Uh, Neil was a judge advocate for the Marine Corps. So when he decided to retire from the Marine Corps, we came up here and I began working for a small tech company outside of Philadelphia that's a cloud services company. I have no tech background. Um, it was strictly for human resources. Um, and I've been with them for eight years now. Um, and that's really where I learned to cut my business owner's teeth. Um, my teeth as a business owner, I should say, um, our management team at the tech company is, was very transparent with their team members. So learning how to look at financial documents, how to analyze, um, data and make it information or very important skills that I was able to kind of take with me and bring up here and apply to both businesses up here. So a lot of times when people are making a decision to, um, I guess realize a life dream and go in a different direction, they feel like they have to throw everything away and just jump in both feet and have financial uncertainty. And it sounds like you've continued to have what we'll call a day job and then also these businesses that you've invested in and started to develop. Tell me about that choice. So Neil and I are very, um, structured individuals. He being an attorney and me being in human resources, we're very process driven. Um, so we are very mindful in the steps that we take and we're very measured. Um, an example of that is when we moved up here to purchase treads, we, um, we rented a furnished apartment because I, we both knew we were not going to have time to unpack our lives and set up our lives while figuring out a, how to make a stair tread, and b, how to even run a business that makes the stair treads. Um, so really taking those thoughtful, measured steps. Um, Neil and I are also incredibly honest and communicative with each other. So if there is something where I'm seeing red flags everywhere, I will say to him, I, I am feeling not, I'm feeling un you know, uncomfortable about this. So being able to have those very frank conversations and when you can, you know, we looked at several businesses and there were some where, you know, I, we can pull up and it, I can see right away, like, this is, this is not gonna be where I want to, to lay my roots down. Um, so really being mindful of Taking those smaller steps. And I think also reaching out to a network. Um, we have a, at this point, a network of experts up here that really help us to run the businesses. So when I have a question or I have a concern, I don't have the answer most times, but I know someone who does. And that's important for me as a business owner because it keeps my anxiety down, which helps me to run my businesses better. Does Neil still work as an attorney? He does not. Um, Neil and I are both very emotional people and we tend to bring our work home with us, um, and working with people, particularly Neil was a defense attorney, so working with people who are not having their best day, it's hard to leave that at the office. Um, and I'm the same way working in hr. You know, people come to you with emotional stories, they're going through personal, personal things and it's hard to turn that off sometimes. Um, so we are kind of situated in those businesses now because there are no stair trade emergencies. There are no wooden screen door emergencies. We close at four, we can shut down and go home and live our lives. No, I mean, that's great to hear and also to know that you've, you know, yourselves that well, that you've, you've just come to a place where you say, you know, these are some hard things and we, we, it's hard for us to leave them behind, so we wanna do this other thing because we want our life to look a different way. It is, it's scary. I think Neil and I are always looking to make things just a little bit better. Can we make this a little bit easier? Like, how can we just enjoy this a little bit more? Neil calls it pulling the flywheel. You know, you have that first big pull and it's hard and it's tough, but every pull after that gets increasingly easier and things go so much faster, so much smoother. It's not going to per be perfect all the time. You know, the tech adage, you know, progress not perfection is very applicable on the shop floor. Um, so we're always looking to get better knowing that we will most likely fall short of that . Yeah. So you just wanna, you fail forward, fail fast, and and learn from it. Falling, get up. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So stair treads, , tell me, tell me about that. That, that, that's also an interesting thing. I mean, it's something I'm not sure everybody spends a lot of time thinking about, but also as you're walking up the stairs, you're thinking, oh, that's a little worn right there. Maybe I should do something about that. It is, it's a very niche industry. Um, new England treads is set up to, uh, custom stain and manufacture stair treads. So stair treads are the part of the stair that you step on. Uh, flooring companies obviously sell hybrid flooring. They do not sell stair treads and stair tread companies do not stain their stair treads to match hybrid flooring. That is where New England tread comes in. So we will manufacture and custom stain your stair treads to match your flooring. Um, people often don't know they have a problem until they do. And when they find us, they are so happy to have found us. Um, I am not passionate about stair treads by any means, but I do now appreciate a, a nicely stained, custom stained tread and handrail. Um, it's one of those things where it's, it's a utilitarian product. You're going to use it every day, and if it's not working, it's going to drive you utterly, utterly mad. Um, so if you are stepping on a tread that doesn't match or is creaky, that's something that just one little thing in life that you wanna make a little bit better. And that's something that treads, um, treads helps with. Yeah, I mean it's, it's so true. It's, it's kind of the things that you, you see every single day and you're thinking, oh, I would really like to fix that cause it's kind of bothering me. And then it goes outta your mind. Then the next time you step on a stare and you think, oh, I would like to fix that . So I mean, I think you're providing actual sort of piece of mind once you people can actually get this taken care of. It is, and, and similarly, the, the, the screen doors, because I think before we started talking on air, you were talking with my husband and he was telling you about our screen door woes that it's actually a thing. It's actually a thing when screen doors do not work and we're in this very short season in Maine of summer. We wanna enjoy the outdoors. And so, so how, how about the screen door side of things? I always like to say Neil and I are very passionate about building wooden rectangles. Um, we're, we excel at right angles. Um, we purchased wooden screen door in November of 2021 from the original owner. Um, he has a, a work workshop up in Waldoboro. He's been making these custom doors. You see them everywhere. I saw five on my way here from my drive to Portland. I counted, um, it is a ubiquitous kind of piece of art in Maine and it's also the first thing that you see. Um, so we, we found that and we found that business. It was being run by, you know, the original owner. He was ready to retire at that point. Neil and I had the flywheel running fairly well at treads and said, we can rinse and repeat with this. Um, we walked in and saw some of the similar issues that were plaguing treads. Um, were also plaguing screen doors as well, and we knew how to fix them. Um, for us it's just a matter of finding the right individuals and getting 'em in the right position with the right training and the right knowledge and letting them go. Um, so we've set that up at treads. Took us about two years. Um, and we've we're setting the board for doing the same thing at screen doors now. So what are the patterns that you see in businesses that you feel like you can do something with, that you can turn around and things that you can, um, apply your knowledge and skills to, to create success? So I have a, a pretty deep finance background. I'm a big Excel person, big QuickBooks person. Um, so when Neil and I are looking for businesses or approaching a business, the first thing I wanna do is I wanna see the books. And I really truly wanna see payroll cuz I wanna see how are you treating your employee? How are you treating your most important asset, your most important resource? Because if those folks aren't happy, I know I'm gonna have a much larger battle to fight than any kind of business wins recession. You can, any of those economic problems aren't going to solve, um, HR related problems basically. Um, So you look at the books, I look at the books. Neil's more of looking at the product. He likes to get in and touch things. Neil's a very, um, tactile person. So I'm usually in the office, buried in the computer and Neil's out on the shop floor ripping things, asking questions, um, usually comes in covered in sawdust or some kind of, you know, something. And that's usually how we work. Then, then we, we get together in a room and we kind of have that, that postmortem All right, what, what are our thoughts? Um, when we were looking for our first business, typically that meant sitting in the car afterwards with Neil's green notebook and just kind of having what I call like word vomit. Just every thought that comes in your head, good or bad, here's my red flags, here's what would be great. Um, and then you kind of go home and digest that. So how did the two of you decide, okay, I'm an attorney, I'm a, an HR specialist, um, and I'm sure I don't have the terminology right cause I know the HR specialist is a very specific thing in hr, but somebody who specializes in hr. Um, how do the two of you decide? Well, we would like to own a business together and we would like to, um, work together because a lot of couples go in completely different directions. They just keep working their lives, and then at the end of the day, they get back together. You actually have separate, you have a separate job, you come together at the end of the day or probably throughout the day and you're doing stuff together all the time. How do we make it work? Yeah. Um, Or how did you even make the decision to decide you wanted to make it work? I Guess? So Neil and I both come from entrepreneurial families. Um, my parents have owned a retail store outside of Philadelphia for 25 years. They just, they just recently retired. Yay. Um, Neil's parents, he actually grew up working with his parents. They own several laundromats. Um, so between the two of us, we can get our hands dirty and we can count, you know, we can count the beans. Um, after that, it was just finding a business where we could apply that. So we didn't want something too big and we wanted something that we, we did care about. I don't wanna be making nuts and bolts. You know, there is something, uh, you know, you, you want something that you are relatively passionate about. When we found New England Treads, it was previously owned by husband and wife with no treads experience. The husband had 20 years of military experience. So when we walked in, we worked directly with them. There was no broker. We walked in and we, we laughed. And I remember sitting in the car and being like, we could do this. Like we could do it. And those first owners, um, bill and Tara really set us up for success. Um, I remember calling Tara a few weeks in just having, I, I just needed a moment. You know, sometimes being a business owner, no one else knows how your day is. There are so few people that at the end of the day, you can, um, commiserate with and really connect with over these like, individual problems, you know? So to have someone who had the five years of experience who could say like, it's okay, this happens. It's how we fix it. Um, it was so wonderful to have that. And we had, um, very much the same experience when we bought Wooden and screen to our company. Um, the original John, he was wonderful. You know, he came in a couple weeks ago, so they're, you know, they care so much about the business. They were so good in the transition and the handoff that really made Neil and I feel like we made the right decision when people care that much about the handoff, you know, they were caring that much about the business prior to that. And on a day-to-day basis, I mean, you must have developed some communication skills Oh, for sure. That enable you to, I guess, work through conflict perhaps, or creatively problem solve. Right. Um, so right now we each, each person takes a business. So one takes treads, one takes doors, and we switch days. Um, at each business there is what we call the book. It's on the desk, and everything that happens in the day needs to get written in the book because the book is our sanity. So if someone calls on Wednesday and says, I called yesterday, I talked to Neil, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't need to go through the whole conversation again. I flip back to the book, Neil left notes. Fantastic. Um, if things need to get done, you know, you put a post-it on it say it gets done. I think the most important thing as a couple for Neil and I is checking our egos. Um, when we walk into the business, it's not Jen and Neil anymore. We're not business owners. Like we, we are just a another team player here. I'm not here to win. I'm not here to be, right. I'm just here to get the treads or the doors out the door. Um, and that is really goes back to Neil and i's management philosophy of extreme ownership. Um, when things go wrong, it's Neil and I's fault. Um, either someone wasn't comfortable coming to us, they didn't have the right tools or the proper training. Um, so it's really important to lead from the top down. And Neil and I practice what we preach. Um, I am so quick to point out to everyone when I make a mistake, I'll walk out and just be like, I really messed this up. And it's sometimes just wonderful for people to know that, um, their boss is a human . I do love this idea of extreme ownership because I think one of the things that often causes problems is, is finger pointing and is an inability to take on responsibility for something. I mean, there are obviously always things we can't control, but we can control ourselves. So do you feel like your willingness to do this has meant that people that you work with are also able to take on this, this ownership? Very much so. Um, I think one of the positive outcomes of ex of Extreme Ownership is you have team members who now have the sense of autonomy, um, being able to own their work. Um, so being able to set up their own work areas, being able to pick out their own tools and define what, how they want to work, when they want to work. Even, um, we've gone to a four day work week up at Wooden Screen Door because, you know, that's what the team asked for and Neil and I made it happen. So giving your team members the power to kind of control their destiny is, has really worked out well for us. And in particularly at New England. Treads, Neil and I, um, a couple months ago brought up our, our, our actually our first hire, our first employee we ever, um, hired at Treads is now running, he's running the company every day. Basically, Neil and I are there on a very limited basis, um, to be able to say, you know, I'm, you know, four years ago you were our first hire. You took a gamble on us. And now to say you can run this, you know, you taught us, we taught you, we gave you the tools you needed, we have these discussions. Like he knows he can come to us. It's, it's so rewarding. Um, and it's something I'm still kind of settling into because it is so new, um, being a business owner, and I think I'm a little bit of a type A person. There's a little control there. And, um, the freedom of being able to trust your teammates is it's, it is, it is so freeing. Um, it's uncomfortable and it's, it's unsettling. And I'm, I'm excited to get used to and, and comfortable and settling into the fact that I don't need to control everything and be everywhere. I trust those people that I work with. I, I pick them myself, , um, so I know they can get the job done. And that trust piece, it, it isn't easy to come by because it really does require working through, um, a relationship and making sure that somebody has the skills and, and just knowing that you've done everything that you can to set them up for success. But at the end of the day, you're, you're a little bit letting go of the rope, as you say I am. Um, a lot of our team members we hired based on what I call emotional intelligence or eq, um, are most recent hire at Chads. I interviewed her on the phone and I re we spoke on the phone for probably 10 or 15 minutes, and I realized after I got off the phone, I didn't ask her anything about her work experience. Like we just started talking. Um, and I got off the phone and I was like, I will happily walk into work every day to, to see her. Um, and you know, she was promoted a few weeks ago, and it, when you find that right person and you make the connection, you will make that work. Anyone can do this job. It, it, it's not rocket science back here. We have experts, you know, we have folks, we have craftsmen with that deep experience and that pool of knowledge. So I trust that you have the emotional intelligence to figure this out and make this work. The other thing with that EQ piece is with such a small team, you, you really have to watch those personalities. So it's important that people that you do hire come through the door, also understand emotional intelligence, also understand, um, communication, transparency, you know, u understanding a little bit of office politics. Um, at the end of the day, we're all human and there are days where I have to, I look at Neil and it's like, I, I can't do this today. Like, I have to go home. I, I don't, I don't wanna do this today. And everyone's gonna have those days at work. There are days where you don't wanna go to work, I can't do this. It's just the thought of, of it is just too much for me. And I love that when my team members can come to me and say, I, I just need to go home. It's like, great, go home. Thank you for knowing your limits. Thank you for being strong enough to say something about them and let me know how you're feeling if you need anything. Um, and that kind of holistic approach to management I think helps with retention, but it also just helps with anxiety at work, right? When you don't know what your expectations are or how people are going to react, it just makes things so much harder. So always having that, you know, open door policy, but really meaning it, um, is what's important there. What Is, what is it about mean that caused you to think, oh, I would like to upend my life and be here? I think when you come over the bridge, there's no more billboards and you don't realize it probably until you get, like, past Portland, Maine removes the noise that you don't even hear. And I think that's what I like most about Maine. I got up here and it was like, oh, there's sky and there's birds and green, and I can appreciate it all. And there's just so much less distraction, that sense of urgency. Um, I think I carried that a lot with me. You know, being in the tech world, everything's on fire all the time. Um, and that's not the case. It's not, um, and settling into that adjustment has just opened up the world to me. You know, being able to be like being still is, is productive. Um, Maine really helps me find that serenity. And you have a connection to Cushing? I Do. Um, so Neil and I just recently purchased our first home up in Cushing, which is very exciting. Um, what's so amazing is where we're located is at across from the Olsen house, uh, which Andrew, Andrew Wyeth painted. Um, and we hail from Chester County, which is, um, down the road from Chads Ford where Andrew Wyeth grew up. So I feel like is this like tiny little Pennsylvania connection where you come to Cushing and you're like, ah, he got it too. Um, we met our first neighbor across the street up in Cushing. He worked for the Philadelphia Children's Hospital for 30 years. So there's a contingent of us up there in Cushings and Philly's fans, but we really just enjoy the serenity of Cushing. Um, we're a half mile from a preserve. I see more bald eagles than I've ever seen in my whole life. . And you split your time. So Cushing is part of your time. And then the other time, sort of your, your work time. We spend down in Portland. So we have an apartment down in Portland. Um, so typically Neil and I will take turns. So during the week, doors is on a four day work schedule. So they're only there Thur, uh, Tuesday to Friday. And treads is closed early on Fridays. So whoever doesn't work Monday has to work that, um, that full Friday. But we'll typically re you know, you meet up Friday, Friday at five o'clock, we're home. You're sitting on the deck, you're having a cocktail, you're not talking about work. You're usually listening to the birds and just decompressing. But that time splitting is a little bit difficult. Um, there are days where I wake up and I don't know where I am, um, or you know, you have to pause before you answer the phone. What business am I working at today? Like, who am I today? But that adjustment is, it's temporary. Um, as we begin to transition more responsibility to the folks at treads, Neil and I will be sending more time up at Cushing. Um, and the goal of that is really to give us more time to work on the business instead of being in the business so much. You know, after four years, you, you have to lift your head up and say, where are we driving this train? Where are we going? And where can we take it? And that's that inflection point is where we are now, is pausing to find that time and really refocusing and driving new directives. A lot of what you're talking about happened during Covid. Yes. We had approximately nine months with that business before the world shut down. Um, and this goes back to experts. This is my, my pool of experts. So, um, our local bank, Gorum Savings Bank, shout out to the team up there. They helped, helped us immensely through Covid. Um, they called me on the Sunday afternoon, a Sunday afternoon to let me know, um, you know, that Covid loans had been approved. And I just, I remember just crying and being like, oh my God, we're gonna be okay. You know? Um, lumber prices went through the roof. I mean, there were days where I fell outta my chair when I looked at the prices of White Oak versus what we were paying six months prior. Um, having to make price adjustments and not knowing how your clients are going to feel it, um, giving out. We offer health benefits to our, um, our team members and making sure that they had the information they need so that that anxiety on their end was decreased. You know, at the beginning no one knew anything, you know, it's like, are we even allowed to drive to work? I was printing out the letters from, you know, the governor being like, keep this in your car cuz you're, you're driving to work at four 30 in the morning if you get pulled over. You know, things were weird then. Um, but again, reaching out to my insurance experts, you know, when, when you have questions it's like, how do I get this? Is this funding allowed for this? Like, who am I reaching out to? What is my liability here? Um, all of all of those pool of experts picked up the phone on the first ring and that again goes back to keeping my anxiety low. Um, and when, you know, when we bought doors, it was so fun to get the team back together. You know, you get, you get the bank, you get the insurance, you get the lawyer, and it's like doing it again guys. And you, you get so excited and it's really like kinda getting the band back together. Um, so when I do need, when I do have questions that need to reach out, you know, at, at times when times get stressful, like during the Global Pandemic, I know that I have individuals that are gonna be able to help me out. Do You have contemporaries who are doing things the way that you're doing them? Uh, I, we do. Um, Shannon at Hay Runner, she's a, a very large inspiration only because she's very similar to Neil and I in that she can kind of take other businesses. She's, she does a great job of integrating them into, um, you know, her, her main hay run business. Shannon's great, um, Heather over at Juniper. Design Build is amazing. Um, you don't see a lot of women in the construction world or manufacturing particularly women owners. Um, so seeing her big renovations over on Peaks Island has been really exciting. Um, outside of that, I love seeing the other husband and wives teams, the other small business husband and wives, just, I love watching the dynamics. Um, cuz there's so many different ways to run a business. Um, so our largest client over at Treads, they're, it's run by a husband and a wife and they're so much fun to hang out with. Um, so contemporaries, yes, but I really think it's more just like, it, it's a wonderful group of, of friends and experts And I guess I use contemporaries and I, I suppose there's an age connotation. It's more like you's sort of your, your, your group. Mm-hmm. You know, other people who are doing things the way you're, you're doing them, which is what you've just described. But it is a unique thing that you're talking about. I think that many more people are likely to, you know, show up corporate job nine to five. And that's kind of the way they live. I, I seems like there are few and fewer family owned or husband and wife type businesses that are out there now, Particularly in Maine. Um, you have an older, you have an older population here. You have a more of a, a manufacturing kind of blue collar, um, economic up economic industry up here. And as those folks begin to retire, you know, their children, they may not wanna take the, I didn't take my parents' business owner over, neither did Neil. You know, I, I knew I didn't wanna do that. So you're, you're going to have these opportunities to purchase these very successful businesses that just need a second lease on life. Maybe they need a quick dusting off, you know, maybe we need to automate a few things, you know, bring things up into the, the current century. But they're successful little businesses, diamonds in the rough. Um, and Neil and I are, you know, I think Neil's always looking around for other businesses that kind of fit that mold. Um, so I it's it's taking that measured jump, right knowing, getting into the books of a business saying, all right, this is a, a financially sound business. What can I do to get it to the next level? Or what can I do to streamline these processes a little bit? Do I hire someone else? Do I outsource, do I bring things in? Um, with Neil and I, a lot of that is verticals, you know, what else can I do with the things that I already have here? A stair tread it, it's a wooden rectangle. A mantle is a wooden rectangle. Floating shelves, tables, those are all wooden rectangles. Um, so kind of keeping that growth mindset and always looking for, how can I make this a little bit better? It's so fun to listen to you talk because I think a lot of people, uh, perceive creativity as I need to go paint a painting, which is wonderful. And you can certainly paint a painting and that is very creative. But as I'm hearing you, what I'm hearing is the creativity and the work that you're doing with these businesses that you're, you're like, how do I arrange this? And I'm gonna put this over here and how do I make all these things kind of come together? And that's something that clearly you feel passionate about. I always joke, I I went to business school. I am not an artist. I cannot render things 3D in my mind. Um, and it's for me, you know, my art is making my spreadsheet. I love when my accounts are reconciled. You know that when my accountant calls me and says, we're all good to go without any questions, that's, that's a win for me. So that's my art and it, that's my creativity. I think what really drives me is the people. Like, who am I working with every day? How are they making me feel? How, how am I making, making them feel when they leave at the end of the day? Um, that's the driver. And, and you know, you have the customers not so much at treads cuz it is a little more b2b, but it wouldn't screen door. No one is ever showing up sad to get their door. You know, they have waited a couple of months, if not years to get this product. So when they come in it's like, it's door day, oh my God. Like, get it together. It's gonna be so much fun. We're gonna load your door up. It's gonna be awesome. So that's so fulfilling to me when people come in. I've been drivin