Bridging Science & Wellness: Dr. Lucy Liaw’s Unique Approach to Health

Today it is my great pleasure to speak with Dr. Lucy Liaw, who is many, many things, but chief among them I think is a faculty scientist at MaineHealth and Professor of the University of Maine and Tufts University School of Medicine. Thanks for coming in today. My pleasure. It's really nice to be here. Thank you. Yeah, I really enjoyed a conversation that you and I had earlier this year and exploring. I think you and I have different things going on in our minds, in our bodies and our spirituality that seemed like they have some interesting parallel paths and some intersections. So I thought that was one of the reasons I was like, oh, I need to bring this person who seems like she's got a similar mindset to me in here and talk. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming in. I guess I should broaden this out to people who maybe don't listen to the Radio Maine podcast and say some of the similarities. So you're a research scientist, you have this strong science background, you got your PhD from the University of University of Washington. So my undergrad was at University of Arizona. I studied biology there and then went to graduate school at University of Washington in Seattle. That's where I got my graduate degree. Yes. Tell me how you came to I came to Maine because my husband decided to move to Maine first. I initially met him when I was in graduate school at University of Washington, and he was also doing some training there. So he is trained as a physician and a researcher, and so he was doing a postdoctoral fellowship and our desks were right next to each other in the laboratory, and that's how we initially met. So I was one sort of training stage behind him and after I got my PhD degree, I went to Nashville where I studied and did more training at Vanderbilt University and he moved on to find jobs and discovered the wonder of Maine and joined and moved here to do some research at Maine Medical Center. And so when I finished my training in Nashville, I joined him here. You've got the scientist part of your background and clearly very well developed in the intellectual area, but you also have this really interesting spiritual physical thing that you've been pursuing for a long time. I think that was for me, the real fascination because as I shared with you, I have a background in Qigong and you have a background in Japanese martial arts, which you've actually brought to MaineHealth and you're putting out there for the employees of MaineHealth. And you also picked up a yoga teacher training certification during covid. So you're integrating mind, body, spirit thinking, all of the things which I think is really challenging to do, but I love that this is the path that you're on. So it's been a really interesting and growing part of my life. So in my professional life as a researcher and educator, it's been very strict in terms of this is what you do. You go to school, you have training, it's very structured, and you start a career and you do research. And that still continues to be a really wonderful part of my life. I think that a lot of my thoughts and a lot of my growth as an individual has been what else is there out there that can help us as individuals, as communities really grow together and find that kind of internal satisfaction community, sense of belonging, sense of empowerment. And so those types of explorations have led me along these different paths. And it's really interesting because as a researcher, I've been trying to integrate the other parts of my life, and so my research colleagues are often very interested and unexpected, surprised to find that I also teach yoga, and I'm a yoga student and I'm still going through yoga teacher certification. And likewise, the community that I know as yoga teachers and students often are surprised to say, you're a researcher, you're a scientist. Wow, I didn't know you did that. And so in a way, those types of areas have been very disparate. They're very seem far apart from each other. And so this is what I'm interested in. How do you bring those together and how do we continue to grow and make that very obvious that of course you're a researcher and do this other kind of work. And that's actually an integration. So tell me about the work that you've done with your sensei and the work that you've done with Japanese martial arts and how you've brought that to your community. So when I moved to Maine, I was very interested in studying martial arts. And so this is not something I grew up doing. My ancestry is Asian and my mother is half Japanese. And so I feel like I had sort of an intrinsic feeling or some kind of a memory, some kind of an echo, some kind of familiarity with that culture. And so the martial arts was something that was very appealing to me, not just for the idea of being powerful or empowered, but also for the other side of what that meant in spiritual evolution because those are very tightly put together. A warrior in the sense has both of those sides. And so it's being able in a physical sense, but it's also being able in a spiritual and mental sense. And it might be also said that a lot of our struggles, a lot of our challenges are within ourselves. And so how do we manage that? How do we grow in that sense so that we become whole human beings? And so I studied the martial arts for many years and still do. And one of the things that my sensei has developed is a very practical workshop and it's an empowerment in self-protection. It is focused towards women, but it's the types of principles are for everybody. So many years ago, probably over 15 years ago now, he was willing to work together and put this program together that we have been running for several times a year within our MaineHealth community and our public community. And so it's one of those things where it's a short workshop. We do learn physical protection techniques, but it's a lot about how do we respond to stress? How are some very basic tools through breath, through relaxation of the body, through movement, through different types of understanding of our physical body, how do we manage those types of situations? So that's been really fun for me. It's been very eyeopening and it's been a way that I could connect and provide something for the wellness of the community. Very rewarding. That's really interesting because I think a lot of people, they pursue things like this because of their internal need to seek something, whether it's wisdom, whether it's self-knowledge. And what you've described a few times now in our short conversation is what you are looking for is really external and really connecting and really community building at the same time as it being internal for you. And I wonder how many people understand the importance of that or feel that themselves. So I think for me, the primary thing, and I think everybody, the internal piece is extremely important. So the ability to understand where we're coming from and our entire history and how that's made us develop as a person, that's what we bring to the world. And so my experience as having a family raising children, that really brought into perspective what am I bringing to others around me? It's been really important for me to do that work and to try to understand and try to understand how I can grow and polish myself in a way. So I think it all starts internally, but it needs to go that step further than that. And so that's how I am thinking about it now that I have some experience and I have learned and I continue to learn, what can I do that will bring it outward towards our community because that's so needed. I feel. An important part of your professional role has been an education and you've done a lot of work with bringing scientists forward and I guess clinician scientists to an extent also forward in their professional field. So talk to me about that. Talk to me about, I mean, you've got so many different aspects to the way that you're presenting in the world and that education piece seems particularly strong. So I've always had a passion for education and mentorship, and I can think about it in science and research again, there's more structure there. And so there are degree programs that students can go through. There's internships, there are structured opportunities for students. And I've been doing this for a couple of decades more than that now. And so for me it's been interesting because it's a very strong learning process. And so the way that I would teach a class lecture for a university class and interact with an intern 20 years ago is very different than how I approach that now. And what I came to realize mostly in the past few years is that the individuality with which we have to bring education is so important. Covid told us a lot about that. When the stressors increase, every single person, every single learner, every single teacher or educator will respond in a very different way. So the way that I want to deliver a message or want to deliver something could land well with one person, but be completely ineffective with somebody else. So being an educator is a constant learning experience as well. So I consider myself to be a lifelong learner and hopefully through time my skills are getting better. And how does that happen? Well, you fail a lot. You think, oh, I wish I would've done that differently. Can I have a do over? But a person who's interested in science and research these days is very different than a person who was interested in yoga and developing their own practice. But there's a lot of the same types of concepts I think that make somebody effective in any type of that role. And to me, it's an ability to be able to sense and understand what that person needs and how to communicate in an effective way with that person to be able to listen and have the intuition to feel the feedback to modify the way that I might be delivering a message. And so it's really bi-directional and I learn as much from my students as I hope they learn from me. That's such an important thing. I think in education also in my field of clinical medicine, because I think for a long time, this idea of being the sage on the stage, that was the way that we showed up as educators where somebody's up there, we are down here, they tell us things, we learn things. And you're right, that going back and forth, that bidirectionality is actually really critical and not only in education, but also as clinicians. And one of the things I've noticed because I've been in medicine a while as well, is that we've done a great job with a lot of things that are more purely objective and creating very binary systems where we get data bits and we're like, I'm going to plug this in here, here, here and here. But then I'm sensing this very real desire for people to reconnect as humans and really reconnect with themselves and reconnect with other people, which is to say, I think there is additional data. That's actually the data you just described. What is the feeling I'm getting from this other person and how do I bring that feeling to some sort of manifestation of, I don't know, relationship or learning or if you're a clinician, some sort of healing space. But it isn't it interesting that this is what's happening, I think in the wake of covid, but I think it was building up before now. Yeah, that's such an interesting observation. I believe that most people think science and medicine are things that we know or we mostly know and that the textbooks that we read are facts. And as you know, as researchers, scientists, the world, we don't understand most of it. And biology is extraordinarily complex. It's a miracle. It's a miracle that our bodies work the way they do, that our minds work the way they do that we can have connections with individuals and other people. So to me, there's so much more that's unknown than the facts that we can read. And research is based a lot on that. It's based on the premise that we don't know and that we are asking questions and that the curiosity is driving us to discovery. So if we knew everything, we would not need to do any research, but most of the things we don't know, and that goes for science, that goes for the natural world, it goes for medicine. And so that's really exciting about being in the field. But I agree with you, there's a huge amount of wanting that personal connection because I think in the end, meaningful for a lot of people. So one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot lately is I want to help with where we are now. And I think that is part of being an educator. It's part of being in medicine in whatever form, whether we're helping by learning things we didn't know anything about or we're helping by sharing information. And it can feel kind of overwhelming at times, just like, where does this fit? Where does this desire to help in a bigger sense? Where does that fit in? I'm wondering if you've ever felt that. All the time. I feel that all the time. So I imagine that in your role as a healthcare professional, that happens or maybe that feedback comes to you on a daily basis with every interaction that you have. For me as a researcher, those types of positive feedback or that recognition of helping or assisting somebody, those are a little bit further away. My research is very basic laboratory discovery based. So we're at the very beginning spectrum of understanding cells, molecules, mutations, things that eventually down the line will impact or cause disease. And of course other types of research, clinical research are much closer. They're working with patients looking at therapies. And so for me, those types of that impact is a little bit further down the line. And so part of the reason I think that has drawn me to working with students and helping them learn because that can be a very positive feedback on a daily basis as well. And then the thing that I also struggle with in terms of impact in the world is that very few of us are going to make this global impact or a national impact, but what can we do within our own communities, right? I will feel great when I teach a class, a yoga class, for example, and somebody comes up to me after class and says, wow, when you said that, that really resonated with me and I felt this. That type of feedback for me from one person is so important, and that makes me feel like, okay, this is why I am learning. This is why I am sharing. It's for those moments. And so that's my reminder to myself. I can make an impact for one person and that's meaningful. One of the things I want to make sure that we talk about is why you chose the type of work that you do as a researcher. First of all, what is the work that you do as a researcher? And I'm sure it's evolved since the beginning of your educational and professional career, but how have you gotten to this place that you are now? My research is essentially cardiovascular health and cardiovascular disease. And most recently I've been interested in obesity and metabolic disease and how that increases everyone's risk for cardiovascular disease. And essentially all of us will get cardiovascular disease or we have that to a certain extent. It's a huge public health problem. And it's interesting to look at the trends over the decades because when medicine and science really learned about risk factors such as smoking and new drugs were developed to maintain and to control cholesterol levels and things like that, the rate of cardiovascular disease actually started to level off and decline. However, at that sort of same time, there was this inflection point with obesity and metabolic disease. And because those are so tightly linked, those reversals and that decrease in cardiovascular disease has actually taken an upturn now, very, very important in terms of the health of our public. This is not just in our country, but globally. That is the basic question that I'm studying. How does fat tissue, adiposity, obesity, all of those things that change how the body handles energy, lipids, all of that, how does that affect cardiovascular disease? And we do it at the very molecular level. So huge problem, and that's why I've studied it. The other thing that it gives me is an opportunity to work with clinicians and clinician researchers because again, so many coronary artery bypass procedures happen every year because so many individuals are suffering from coronary artery disease. So that gives us an opportunity to really work with the clinicians and say, what would be helpful? Or what do you see when you're treating these patients that I need to think about and vice versa? So we found that this fat tissue could be really important. Can we study that in the human? Can we get some of that tissue and see how closely we can model the progression of the disease? So to me, that ability to have some research that's very translational, that's a clinical problem. That's why I study what I do. Initially in my career, I wanted to be a physician, and after having a laboratory experience, that completely changed my perspective, just the ability to study a question, be in the lab. I completely switched, decided not to go to medical school and wanted to go to graduate school instead. And that was from having an experience to be an intern in a research laboratory. And so that's a huge part of what I do now is run programs where we can get students who might be interested in the sciences, medicine technology, bring them into the laboratory, give them an experience, and that ability for them to either say, yes, this is really intriguing, or I'm not going to ever come to a lab again. That's really important. And so that's a big part of what I do as well. I'd like to hear more about that because I really love that we are doing so much more research in Maine than even when I started my career. And this idea that there's so many additional possibilities for people who are coming into the field that they can choose to approach medicine from a completely different perspective. They don't need to go to medical school. They can go and get their doctorate in a different area. So I know that this is something that you've been really involved with within our state, and I'm assuming that probably it kind of has reaches out into the national and international realms as well. Yeah, so Maine is a very interesting state because it's one of these states that traditionally has not been a strong area for biomedical research because of our rural nature and because of the few relatively small population, this has not been one of those places where biotech, biomedical research has been strong. And so this has been recognized by the National Institutes of Health and the federal government. And so Maine is lucky to be part of a federal funding program that is specifically targeted to increase the level of infrastructure for research, all types of research in our state. And so it's through those programs that we have gotten particular grants and particular money that has come in to develop basic research, translational research and clinical research. And so I would say even when I came here over 25 years ago, there was not a lot of that, right? And through these types of programs, through the institutions saying, we need to really bolster this type of area because in the end it's workforce development, it will aid in the economic growth of our state. And so I've been really fortunate to see this incredible sort of blooming of life sciences and biomedical research and be a part of that. So a huge part is the learners. I remember I used to hear about the brain drain in Maine when I came here, meaning that people who grew up here, perhaps their families had been here for generations, would eventually end up moving out of the state and taking job opportunities other places or maybe their education other places as well. One other thing that I found interesting about New England and Maine in general is that people who grew up here want to be here. They want to live here, come back. And so that's why we need to build all of that infrastructure. That's why we need to build these programs. And a lot has happened in the past couple of decades, so now there's a lot of opportunity for students who are interested in life sciences, healthcare professions, to do job shadows, to do internships, to come work in the lab, to have a clinical experience. And that really is important I think, for us. And as we are trying to bring in more companies and industries. Right now I'm working with a group, we call ourselves the Maine Life Sciences Network. And the purpose of that is to get all of us across the state of Maine who are interested in any type of life science to get together to put our brains together and think about what are good strategies going forward, how can we continue to bolster our educational programs? How can we collaborate and work across disciplines? How do we attract those companies to come here and start their businesses here, small businesses, large businesses, and enhancing the workforce. And because Maine is such a wonderful place to live, it's not hard to imagine attracting people to stay or to come here. I love it here. And I had to look up Maine on the map honestly when I initially thought about moving here. But I think there's so many wonderful things about being here and the culture is changing and that infrastructure to be able to do life sciences is really changing and growing as well. So we have a lot of opportunity coming forward. When I finished my doctorate a year ago now, one of the things that was most powerful for me was the opportunity to work through the dissertation process and to work through the dissertation process with in particular my PhD dissertation chair. And that when I finished, he said, you're now in this lineup, this legacy. I got it from my mentor and I'm bringing it to you, and then maybe whatever will happen from you on out, who really knows. But for me, that was really powerful because I know that I've had mentors in medicine and they've really impacted my ability to work clinically, but to work with a mentor through a problem and a problem with a lot of unknowns, and all you do is you kind come into it with a question and some structures and you look up the background information and you go through this whole process, it's really powerful. It's very different than working with clinical mentors because there's a lot of uncertainty that comes about with asking questions. You've got what happened and you've got a question and then you have to figure out how you want to look into it. But I'm wondering what your experience has been. Yeah, I've had a very similar experience. So this brings me back to when you were talking about the guru and the student and that there's this different level. Research and science and that whole kind of dissertation process or understanding that really levels everything out. And so the years of experience that I might have as a mentor in a field that's still mysterious in a lot of ways really begs the question of how many different questions can you come up with? How many different alternative possibilities would explain this observation? And a lot of times the beauty of having not naive minds, but new minds, we get into dogma over time and we get into expectations and we need to consistently say, that's what I'm assuming, but how can I look at this a different way? And students and trainees and people who are earlier in their careers, they help us do that. And so the ability to do that and to learn, it's definitely bi-directional. And one of the nice stories that really kind of warmed my heart was when this sort of generational, my PhD student went on and became a very successful scientist and is mentoring other people. And one of the times when one of my graduate students was still in training through the program, all of the graduate students were able to on an annual basis, invite an external speaker to come as a keynote speaker for their annual program retreat. And one year they chose my mentor, who I had trained with in my PhD. It was sort of the grandfather of the parent of the grandchild. There is also this research training legacy as you've mentioned, and it's really great to think that you can trace back and that you want to see what happened two generations ago. And so that was a really nice kind of full circle for me when I found out that the students had chosen my prior mentor for my PhD research to come and address them and talk about his exciting research. So it's just family, it's like a family type of thing. Very, very interesting. And also for me, it speaks to something that you brought up earlier, which is this idea of science and this idea of going through covid and having people say, well, you have to follow the science. And for me, I was like, follow the science. Science is a question, and it's just an iterative question. So if you do get caught up in dogma, then you're not really actually following the science because science is only what you know at any given time, and then you make a decision for the next thing. And I think for me, I looked around at people and they got very locked in on this is the answer. And I'm like, well, maybe it's an answer for right now. But I think to twist yourself up and knots to rely on the answer of right now when you actually don't really know, it kind of creates this, for me, an awareness of how uncomfortable people are with the uncertainty that they're willing to lock themselves into something that maybe is only real for a fleeting second. And that's such a good point because that brings us to public trust of science. And one of the things that I think we need to get out of as a public is sort of what exactly what you said, that this is the answer. And if a new discovery comes along, then something was wrong before, or the people who were bringing that initial knowledge we were wrong and now we're changing our minds. But that's a natural process. We hope to uncover new information that helps us revise our model. And so when I mentioned the textbooks, the textbooks that you see, the picture you read, the description, those things these days in science and medicine and all of the technology that changes so quickly, we don't use textbooks anymore. And that part of the reason is you use primary literature, you use primary research, you use the latest discoveries because that's how quickly the world is changing, and that's how quickly scientific discoveries are being made. And so I think it's important to communicate that and have people understand when we come up with something as scientists, that's the best that we know right now. It doesn't mean it's a fact. It doesn't mean that we can't learn more because we're always looking to learn more. And that's something that can be difficult for some people to understand because we want to know things. We want to know that this is how life works, and we want to know that this is a fact. And in science, it's very mysterious still. Which again brings us full circle to the beginning of our conversation, which is even our ways of knowing. And for me, one of the reasons that I decided to study traditional Chinese medicine and decided to study Qigong and decided to study other ways of integrating therapies into a more western model of medical thinking was because I saw the limitations. Western medicine has given us so much in so many different ways, and it is not the end all be all. And so for me being able to go back and say, here's this other thing, this other path that other people have been walking on for such a long time, are there valuable things that we can bring in that we can understand better? And then are there ways that I can understand better as a human that really are very integral to me? But I actually had to get to a place of trusting myself that what I was understanding was just as legitimate as what somebody else understood, wrote a book about, gave me a lecture on, and then I brought in as knowledge that way. I love that exploration so much, right? I just love the way that you're thinking about it and the way that it's an expansion of your knowledge is an expansion of your experience. And when I can't think of any situation in your life entirely when an expansion of your experience isn't going to enrich your life. So I have the same kind of principle and the sort of that seeking sort that I don't think I know everything that's out there and some of those traditional philosophies or those very ancient or indigenous knowledge and experience. I think that's really important to tap into. And that's part of what I'm interested in as well. And one of the reasons why you and I actually initially connected was because you were doing this educational piece over with the women's self-defense work, and I was doing this educational piece that had to do with leadership and with women in leadership. And so for me, it translates into if we understand that there are different ways of knowing and there are different ways of understanding, then how do we become better at leading? And for me in medicine, understanding what that looks like because I think the direction that we've gone in has yielded certain outcomes. I'm not going to say they're bad outcomes, but they're outcomes. So can we lead differently the same way that you're talking about, can we mentor differently? Can we learn differently? Can we teach differently? And that is the fascinating place for me right now because I don't know the answer. And yet to be a leader, people have assumed traditionally the answer, and you're going to tell everybody the answer and everybody's going to follow you. Yeah, and that's one thing that really interested me about the work that you're doing because that's something I question as well. And another way that we learn, of course, is through our role models and for seeing our peers, seeing our leaders, seeing our colleagues around us. And many, many times I've seen things where I think that was really well done. I really love the way that that individual spoke, communicated, was compassionate, listened. And those are wonderful things that just by watching, so not a formal mentor-mentee relationship, but be aware, take those things that really seem very productive and bring them in. Of course, on the other side, you can learn from seeing things that you might feel, wow, that was challenging or that didn't seem to come across quite as well as intended. And I think part of that, just kind of informal, having people around you that's always being absorbed in us. And so to me that's even more important to say who's around us? Who can we join with? How can we make a community of like-minded people? And that that's how we grow and that's how we get challenged, and that's how we observe. And so I hope that in my evolution I can stay. I hope that I can listen. I hope that I can learn, and I love to meet people who might challenge my ideas or have really a more broad perspective because I think we all need that. I agree. See, I started by saying, I think one of the reasons that I wanted to make sure that you and I had this conversation is because we actually have a lot of ways of similarly thinking about things