Breaking the Mold: Shannon Richards' Company, Hay Runner, Reimagines the Home Building Process

Today I have with me in the studio, the founder and owner of Hay Runner Shannon Richards. Thanks for coming in today. Thanks for having me. I'm really intrigued by your company because you and I have known each other for a while, and I know that this is a kind of an evolution of the work that you've been doing for many years, and it, it sounds like you're really in a building phase. Mm, Definitely. It's a, it's very much a building phase. Um, all in . Good. Yeah. Well, what is Hay Runner? Hay Runner is a, uh, a company that combines real estate. So on paper, or, you know, upon first blush, I would say on the surface it is real estate design, construction and maintenance services or handyman services. And then if you go down a little deeper, there's some, you know, subtle, um, it's a, a place for artists to find a, a landing spot. It's a place for growing and for maybe some unconventional, um, activities to, to come together in a design build company. So that's some of the stuff we're nurturing right now. Yeah, That's a lot. Yeah, it is. So what caused you to, um, move out of, say, say just a building space or just a real estate space and think I need to do something more comprehensive? Such a great question. Um, so I have a sculpture degree, I have an arts degree. And I think the way that I look at it is I'm really just not fulfilled doing one thing. The things that bring me the greatest satisfaction, um, is bringing, collecting things to bring together and creating something from that. So creating, I always say creating something from nothing is the hardest thing you can do. Doing it well is that much harder, right? So I always feel like a sense of accomplishment when I can pull together things that really work together and create something typically that functions. So I've created this business that in some ways is a tool for bringing together these different subjects that need to be together, I think in a lot of ways to work successfully. And, um, and that's like gratifying. And then I look forward, I was just saying to Caleb this morning, my partner, it's still, it's still so much of a build moment. I really look forward to like a time when it's not just surviving, but thriving. And I know that's coming, which is exciting. So give me an example of something that you're working on. So if, if I'm, if I'm watching or listening to this interview and I'm thinking, okay, I, I kind of get it, but mm-hmm. , I get the concept, but I, I really need to dig into this a little bit more. What's an example of something that people might understand? Well, um, let's see. If you, let's say that you had a little project in your house and you, you guys have built a great house here and you've been taking care of it, and it's like 15, 20 years old. And you think, I need somebody who understands the value of what we've already done, but it's something that's maybe a little bit smaller or quirky or you probably need a permit for it, but you know, there's some talent that you need. And a lot of the really great builders out there are doing new construction as they should be. They're doing a fantastic job. So there's a real hole in the market there. So that's just one aspect of it. And then in addition to that, um, a real estate component, having somebody and a company that understands designing, and when I say design, I mean planning, um, the understanding of permitting that, that whole in the middle that puts these pieces together. So a lot finding somebody or an entity that understands the real estate side of things and has a license and can advise and be an expert, it really does feed, they all feed together. Do you know what I mean? And the markets, the way that they go up and down, it's nice to have that cushion of like, okay, well these spike in the spring, these dip, you know, so you've got that, um, that ability to kind of ride the wave. And it's not as much of a feaster famine. How did you move from your interest in art and the degree that you got mm-hmm. that was art focused mm-hmm. toward real estate? Great question. So I think the reason I'm, I have real estate is I started as a very young person in restaurants. And so I understood I had to, at the time it was all cash and it was tips, and I was a waitress, and you kind of understand how to service somebody. Okay, so what is it that they're looking for? They might not wanna spend a lot of money. They might wanna spend a little bit, they might wanna spend a lot. How do you understand very quickly what it is that's going to satisfy their needs at this moment? And I think I just, I put myself through school doing that. And then I think even as a young business person, brokering was something I was constantly doing. So you, you become expert at selling and understanding somebody comes to you, they, they have a need. You have to understand, do I have something that could fulfill that need? So having a real estate license is nice because it allows me to have that control, that information, and the ability to, to get from A to B much quicker than if I have to go through somebody else who doesn't have the intuition that I have. You know what I mean? So sales is a natural part of business, frankly. And how do you feel that your undergraduate work in art has contributed to the work that you're doing currently? Oh, hugely. I mean, I'm so grateful that I, I took like the all in approach back then. It was a big risk to go to get a sculpture degree, but, um, yeah, I think it's definitely fed my, the whole engine, you know, getting there and, and learning and studying, um, amongst colleagues who were driven in some of the same ways and focusing on how to make something. I typically ended up making something that was, uh, functional. So learning how things work and didn't work, you know, it, it was a natural transition. And then building furniture and fixtures just was a way to also practice adding value to, uh, if there's enough value and somebody's gonna pay you for it, you, that's success. Right? And if I go, I still go back to Syracuse and they're flower boxes I made for a restaurant. I still can see them there. They're made outta steel and they're still, you know, rusting away, but look cool. So, you know, when you start you say, oh, okay, well that worked. Somebody's willing to pay you for it. You, you kind of follow that path, you know? What was it about sculpture that appealed to you? Um, I think the idea that it's a three-dimensional, I love drawing, but the idea that there's something, um, substantive and, and dimensional and, and real at the end, you know what I mean? I love paintings, don't get me wrong. Like, I love to draw and paint it. It's also really, I mean, how many wall, how many, you know, how much space can I fit? And it felt to me like, I dunno, the pole was there, you know? What is your connection to Maine? I was born here. I was born at Maine Medical Center. I'm from the Casteen down east area, but we had, my parents were there. My, all of my family has been merchant Mariners. My dad shipped out, my stepdad shipped out, my whole family went to main Maritime. And, um, I don't know, I think that my pool to come back here after school was huge. It's just, it, where can you be near the ocean, near the mountains? It's all the same things that all of you think. Everybody here who's living here, they all know the secret sauce, why we're here, you know, small population's safe, do you lock, you don't have to lock your doors necessarily. That kind of thing. So it was a no-brainer to come back here and set up shop. So that sounds like you have kind of a more of an ocean going family, definitely. Based on what you're saying. Yeah. But, but the work you're doing now seems a little bit more land focused. Mm-hmm. , do you bring the water element into the work that you do now? Oh, that's such a nice question. Yeah. We're just starting a, um, island runners crew. So to help the islanders, I mean, I think of Maine as an island in itself, like we're gals, right? There's an emergency. It's like, get a shovel, you know, it's like all hands on deck. This is Maine, and it, that's just a little bit of a graduated version of what's happening on islands. So, um, I love being on the ocean. We have, Caleb and I have an old wooden boat. Um, it's a lineman and I think it's, uh, 69, 68, 69. We're renovate. We're actually doing some work on it. Wooden boats need to be worked on all the time. So, um, oh, you know what, to going back to your earlier question of what are you doing? That's fun. This is fun. We bought an old school in Lyman, Maine, which is not, the boat has nothing to do with each other, but just a coincidence. And it's a 10,000 square foot mason rebuilding that had been left empty for years and years and years. And we're turning it into studios. It has six acres. So we're trying to build basically like an art, um, enclave or a place for studios. And we've already got some of the people who work with me, we have a plant division we just started, which is interior plant decor, and they have their studio there. And we've got our studio and we're starting to, um, renovate and add studios for other artists. So that's kind of fun. Right. That's very fun. Right? Yes. Kind of forgot about that one. . I mean, I think it is interesting when you're newly, newly, I guess, investing in a different sort of business. Cause you've, you've, you know, been in business for a very long time, long now, in, in many Ways. Yeah. 25 years, I'd say. Yeah. So this, this is just, again, the next Iteration Iteration mm-hmm. of what you've been doing. But, um, the amount of time and effort and creativity that goes into that sometimes can cause you to feel like, oh, do I actually have any mental or emotional space for anything else? Yeah. So what's great about what you're describing is that it's still technically part of the business, but it mm-hmm. , it seems like it provides this additional layer of joy that You Totally consider fun. Absolutely. It's so important. It's inspiring. It's so important to be like, okay, we're in this rat race. What are we doing with our life? Like, let's leave something behind that we're proud of. You know, like I always say, let's leave it a little better than we found it, you know? And, and that's true. I think that's what art is for me. It's, it's what makes it worth living for, basically. Why a wooden boat. They're beautiful, they're absolutely divine. And I think it's a, again, like a labor of love, right? Like the arts, you just, it's a picnic boat. It's beautiful. I'll take you out on it. It's really quite lovely. And, um, you know, less money to acquire, more to maintain. But when you're passionate about wood and the materials, and when you look at it, it's stunning. So, no complaints. Is this something that you had access to when you were growing up? Oh, Yeah. Yeah. We were on the water all the time, but Particularly the wooden boats. Oh. Um, no, I wasn't. I just, I've always been at, my mom used to say, take you anywhere, Shannon. You'll find the most expensive thing in the room. And like, I just have a, it's a natural, you know, orientation towards things that are of finer quality. So that's one of 'em. Can't help it. I mean, I, I, I think my husband might say that about me at times, , so I can relate to that. I don't think there's a problem. We may have that in common. Yeah. It's, it's not like you're running around saying, I need, I need to have all the stuff. Mm-hmm. , it's like, if I'm going to invest in something, let's make it something nice. That's right. And something that will stay with us for a long time. That's Right. Absolutely. That's a hundred percent how I feel. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. Well, don't need it all, but what I do have, I want it to be nice. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , I agree With that. Yeah. So I know Caleb Johnson is your partner. Mm-hmm. , and he's an architect. Mm-hmm. . And I've actually, I've interviewed him before mm-hmm. . So, um, what is that like to be, um, have a partner who is an architect and you have your own design and art background in real estate, and how, how do you collaborate on things? Yeah, we do. I mean, this is the school we're doing together. Um, we have two households that we, it's not entirely blended because we have, his kids are in Bedford schools. Mine are in Portland schools. But we have, um, kind of figured it out in a way. And we go back and forth every week on week off. And then in terms of work, um, we bought my office together. My company is buying us out now that it's kind of like got in there. We've got it all figured out. Some of his staff who needed places to sit, because he was outgrowing his space, are in my office. They're, we just finished buying them a beautiful historic building in Portland. We closed last Friday, so they'll be transitioning out. So we support one another through, you know, these kind of adjacent activities. And it's transactional in some ways. We do a lot of like co Like, we don't really collaborate at the office anymore. We did work together for a while, as you know. Um, and that was really successful at building his company. But, you know, once that got to a certain point and we decided to be together as in a romantic way, we separated. And that's where I started to grow or started Hay Runner. And, um, yeah. So I think we just kind of figure it out as we go. We're very creative, you know, artistic. And we were at the museum last night for the, uh, winter Bash, and I'm not sure if there were more people that spent more time in the, the, um, gallery itself. You know, really like exploring the art that's there. We really, that's something that really connects us. And do you find that you learn from his architecture background? Oh, definitely. Oh, a hundred percent. Anytime we travel, he's, he's so smart and he reads so much, and he, um, his experience and his talents, I mean, I, I think he's probably the most talented, no offense to all the other amazing architects, but I'm a huge fan of his work and his methodology, um, his draw to, to quality his draw, to, to the details. Um, so yeah, I've learned endlessly from him. And business wise too, he is a very smart business person. So I like to think that I bring some of the softer things, to the, you know, I give him some of the softer skills and I have the, like, the instincts that I was describing, but he's just very, he's very well-read and very, he has great instincts too. I don't mean to say that, but, Well, that was gonna be my next question. Yeah. Is, you know, it sounds like in partnership, you both are contributing in pretty significant ways. And so tell me what a softer skill is for you. Well, like the instincts of like, you know, he would be the first to say, if you were here, I'll say, um, oh, I noticed this thing. It feels like there's a hole. Something's missing, there's some information missing. And I'm, I'm willing to bet it's either A or B or C. We were just talking about this yesterday, and he was like, boy, that's, I, I don't have that. He's like, you're right. And most of the time, I'm right. And I, I'll predict these things. So the ability to predict forecast based on intuition, I have, I have a pretty, and I obviously study the numbers and I'm pretty data driven also, but usually there's a nuance there that I can bring to the conversation. That's helpful. Well, it's interest, it's interesting that you're talking about being data driven and you're kind of equating that with a more of a numerical data. Mm-hmm. . But I, I've been in a conversation recently with somebody who pointed out to me, well, you know, qualitative data is, is also data mm-hmm. . So what you're describing is maybe more, more of a feeling, more of an intuition. It's maybe more qualitative than quantitative. Mm-hmm. . But It's still data. It's so true. When you collect qualitative data over years and years and years, and you, you can tend to say like, oh, I was right about that, then that's absolutely fundamental to success. I'd love to show you my spreadsheets though, like I get right up in there. Well, I think it's good to be able to speak both languages. Mm-hmm. definitely a hundred percent. And I also think that, you know, one of my interviews a few months ago, there was a conversation about soft skills. Mm-hmm. and this idea that maybe traditionally qualitative information are softer skills. Mm-hmm. are looked down upon in some way. Mm-hmm. . And people would say, well, the numbers are what's important. But I actually think that if we could value what we're getting from lots of different places, then that doesn't make a soft skill anymore. Or less valuable than Totally. I guess I'll call a hard skill of, um, numerical data gathering. Mm-hmm. . Absolutely. And I think you would have, like, the data nerds would come to the table and say that they would be like, well, I've got the data, but I really need somebody to help me understand some of the nuances. Anybody who's really, I think probably expert understands what they don't know that there's a nuance. So, and my mom, my mother is a, um, an intuitive, so I was raised in a very intuitively encouraging environment. So follow your intuition, follow your, she was the one that said, you know, I said, I think I need to go to art school. I, I understood very young that success would only come from being creative. And she said, absolutely, you need to follow your intuition. That's what's gonna lead you to success. So I agree. I think that there's a, there's a nuance there, but I, I think a lot of people that we run across who are, are like excelling or expert and successful, they understand that. Don't you agree? You probably don't get a lot of like real stern, like, no, we gotta do it this one way that are being, that are really pulling it off. Well, my favorite thing to do is to be in a room full of people, each of whom understand what we're calling data from a really different place. Mm-hmm. . So to be in a room with somebody who's the finance person, and somebody who's the operations person mm-hmm. , and somebody who's the, who's the human resources person mm-hmm. . Because I think that when you can actually build on that collaboration and each person bringing something to the table, but everybody trying to also understand and value what the other person brings. Mm-hmm. , I mean, that just, that leads to, um, such rich experiences compared to if you just take one path that's mm-hmm. dictated by one person. Oh, completely. Yeah. And that's, I think that's the nuance of leadership, good leadership these days is saying, look, I've got our heading. I sit around in the room with every person you just said, we have an ops meeting once a week, and I have those people at the table with me, and I might be driving the boat, but it's not on my own. And you have to take, there has to be collective agreement and influence, and you have to be open to that. And that's what I think is really successful. Well, as you're talking about your mother, I'm thinking about my mother who, um, was a math teacher for many years in math and science. Mm-hmm. , but she also comes from this Irish background, and it's a very intuitive, um mm-hmm. group of individuals. Mm-hmm. . And, um, my mom of course watches or listens to radio main every week. Mm-hmm. . So mom, I, I'm sorry to out you in front of everybody, , tell everybody how intuitive you are, but for me it is just fascinating. Mm-hmm. , because I think there's the side of her that is very math and organized and straightforward. Mm-hmm. , but then there's this interesting kind of mystical Mother Mary thing mm-hmm. that's going on that, that I just love about her. Totally. Yeah. And we're, we are Irish American. My mother is Mary, her name's Mary. Oh, See, we've got the Mother Mary thing. Intuition, it's happening. Mm-hmm. . Yep. No, I think we are, yeah. There's this like, old, well, I think female encouraging to, you know, heal. And, um, that's a big part of, I think our lives, if we are, I mean, I'm a mother, there's a lot there. You can't explain. You just know That is true. . And, and what I also like about these days is understanding that what we've traditionally associated with feminine energy is something that actually is in mm-hmm. , anyone of any kind of self, um mm-hmm. self-described. Mm-hmm. orientation. That's right. So we've got the masculine and the feminine. Mm-hmm. , it's very Chinese medicine, it's yin and yang mm-hmm. . And we all have aspects of all of This completely. So we don't have to feel locked in anymore too. Well, if I'm a man, I have to be a finance man. Right. Or if I'm a woman, then I have To, I have to. Yeah. Do more Men be a stay at home. Well, and also like the value I was just saying the other day about the value of being, um, a great stay-at-home mom is, it's just as valuable. You're, you are stewarding our future generations. And then if you're somebody like me who's like, I feel fulfilled working and I have these great kids who I've always had luckily had really great nannies to help and people, and my family is always like, I have a huge family. Everybody's all in. So I just think if you're going to do something, give it everything you've got. You know, if it's, and use your, I mean, I'm a woman in design and construction. There are a lot of us around nowadays, but it's not traditionally, A lot of times I'm the only person of my gender at the table, you know, growing, coming up the ranks. Anyway, it's changing now. But Yeah. I mean, the same is true in medicine. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I mean, Yeah. The higher, the further along I go in medical leadership, the fewer and fewer there are of us. Who That's right. Have a specific chromosome mold designation, . Totally. So I'm looking around and there are many wonderful leaders that I work with who happen to be female, but they're not necessarily, um, they haven't come through the medical profession. Yep. Makes so it is, makes sense. It is interesting. Yeah. And it is changing. Yeah. So it's a, an interesting kind of, I've found it to be an interesting foot in both camps, really. Definitely Where I came from and my training and my experience and where we are now. Mm-hmm. , they're very different. Yep. Agreed. And Yep. And the people who are coming along now mm-hmm. , they don't really understand what was mm-hmm. and, and the people that came through before. Mm-hmm. , sometimes it's easy to feel a little, I don't wanna say disrespected exactly, but maybe misunderstood Yeah. By people who are coming along now. Yeah. Well, and that's probably generational too, right? I was talking with Danielle Bets, do you know her from Knickerbocker? Yeah. We were talking the other day and she was saying same thing when she was coming up the ranks. She really, uh, was mentored by a colleague who was a little bit, a little bit further along. Um, and I'm forgetting her name. I've met her before from Smrt. You might know her too. Um, but it's just really great to see that, like there is this generational hand down of the baton. Like I know what you're probably going through. Maybe it's a little different. You know, Danielle's maybe a little bit older than me, but not much. But she's like, Hey, you know, we got together the other day and she was like, try this. Have you thought of this? Let's get back together, keep it on the regular. So that kind of support is also nice when it comes from people who have, you know, kind of a little bit of an understanding, a little different, but there's some overlap. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , It's important. Mm-hmm. , tell me why the name Hay Runner. Hay Runner. Good question. So I was inspired reading this. Um, it was a, um, biography about Cornelius Vanderbilt. And he started out, it was inspiring to me, and I, I understand like along the ways he was like this old white guy and, you know, it was a man's world and blah, blah, blah, but you have to find inspiration where you can. He started out running hay in little Perrier boats from Staten Island to Manhattan Island during the war of 1812. And he was known for being this person who would show up no matter what, if it was shrapnel or weather. And the horses always ate the hay. He always, he was running hay to feed the horses that were in the war. And they say that the, um, the cavalry is what won the war, because they always had food. They could always count on him. And he started, he, you know, his parents were Dutch farmers. They wanted him to be a Dutch farmer at a fourth grade education. And he was like, you know what, no, I've gotta follow my instincts. And he started going after, um, steam shipping. He was, you know, he just basically started doing these things that he was driven to do. And he started bringing together and consolidating these different industries that needed to be, uh, consolidated. And then it was not many years later, he owned $1 for every $20 in the United States of America. He was driven. And there are some things he did wrong along the way that I don't wanna repeat, but, you know, it's, I, it was inspiring to me at the time that I was starting this. Well, it sounds like he, his diversity of interest is not that dissimilar to the diversity of interest, right. That you're weaving together. Yep. And he's an islander, which I can relate to and Yep. He was close with his mom, , there's all kinds of like, little things in there I thought were cool. Yeah. But yeah. Well, I've enjoyed catching up with you and learning about where you are now today since, since I've been, you know, kind of, you and I have rotated in the same circles for many years. Mm-hmm. Now totally Seeing what each other is up to has been very interesting. Yeah. And, uh, and I appreciate you taking the time and talking today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I know it's been a pandemic. It's nice to see you again. . Too Long. It's been a pandemic. We to See each other all the time. And now it's like you don't see anybody. Yeah. You Know? Yeah. We're all emerging once again. Yeah, Exactly. So yeah. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Thank you. And today I've been speaking with the owner and founder of Hay Runner Shannon Richards, thanks for joining us. Thank you.