Art Consultant Returns to Maine to Support Artists: Phoebe Cole

Lisa Belisle: Hello, I'm Dr. Lisa Belisle and you are listening to or watching Radio Maine. Today I have with me in the studio, art consultant Phoebe Cole. Nice to have you here today.

Phoebe Cole: I'm really happy to be here.

Lisa Belisle: So I'm really intrigued by your background because you have a lot of connections to art and the arts, but you have an undergraduate degree in arts administration?

Phoebe Cole: Yes, arts administration. It's funny, it's actually traditionally more of a grad degree and I was lucky to snap it up as an undergrad. Simmons College is where I went to school and they are a phenomenal liberal arts program, and I always knew I loved art. I did photography, it was my minor, but something about the idea of combining the business of art, communications and all of that together into something I could sink my teeth into on the administrative side was really exciting. So I took that as my major and have really found a home in that field since.

Lisa Belisle: Do you find that a lot of artists have a background that enables them to understand the business side of things, or is that somewhat unique?

Phoebe Cole: It's totally a combination. A lot of artists find that they love it and really enjoy doing it. And then I know a lot of other artists who really would rather that be left to someone else, or find that their creative energy is best spent making the work and not necessarily marketing it or understanding some of the finer market nuances, which are complicated. I've really found that that's something I love to work on.

Lisa Belisle: Well then talk to me a little bit about that. Talk about these complicated, finer nuances of the market that you find so interesting.

Phoebe Cole: Well, to me art is such a beautiful, interesting and specific field, right? And once you try to put this monetary value onto it, it gets tricky. I think especially working in my field and on the work I do with Powell Fine Art Advisory, we walk this fine line where we're trying to find something that is a beautiful accompaniment to someone's life, to their home, but also a great investment. Something that they feel is going to really complete their home and also give them this benefit of living with a beautiful object. I think it's really fun to play that puzzle of what makes sense for folks and where they want to spend their money and how they want to bring artwork into their home.

Lisa Belisle: I'm always interested by the idea of the value of art and artwork, because I think there's obviously a subjective value that hopefully most, if not all people have, but then there is somewhat more of an objective value placed on art often, which I wonder if that's the trickiness that you're talking about, because maybe it's not always so clear.

Phoebe Cole: I am very open that I think people should react to art and collect in a way that is something that they love. In a sense, you want to put value aside, but you also want to just be smart about it and acquire things that you are going to love. I think we should always think of art as heirlooms or things that you'd want to keep in your home and invest in and continue to keep close. So that's how I think of it. It is tricky, and I think once you get into the really larger blue chip area of it, it gets even crazier. But especially when I'm here in Maine, I find it's very easy for people to find work that they connect with, that's a great investment that they also just want to love and live with.

Lisa Belisle: I know you do work with the Portland Art Gallery and other art galleries. So when you're working with an art gallery and you're working with a client, describe the process of how the interactions take place and how you are able to find something that maybe is at the Portland Art Gallery that's the right fit for a client that lives either locally or somewhere else.

Phoebe Cole: Definitely. I think the MO that we work with is to just always have eyes on different types of work, different artists' work, what different galleries are showing. Popping into Portland Art Gallery or Alice Gavin Gallery, any of the galleries in Maine is such an amazing local way to see great art. So it's constantly eating with your eyes, continuing to take in work. And then once you have a conversation with a client, you understand maybe it's their home, maybe it's what their interests are, maybe it's a connection from their childhood, things that they are interested in. And then you draw on that visual rolodex of, okay, I remember seeing this at this time. Oh, what about that artist? You can really pull and then weave together a grouping of work that you can share with a client, get their feedback, and then it's actually very natural. It just develops from there. And then we obviously draw on the support of the gallery to have these incredible relationships with artists and to bring forth great work, which we get to then share.

Lisa Belisle: And are some people more interested in the relationship with the artist and wanting to know the artist and know the story behind the art, and others maybe less interested in that, just want to pick up like, oh, this is the one that matches my couch, or this is the one that's the right fit for my interests. Do you find that there's different types of ways that people connect with the art?

Phoebe Cole: Definitely. I myself value artist relationships above all. Working directly with artists is another thread that I've kept throughout my career. And I think we see that all the time. Some clients want to do that, some clients engage in a studio visit, or perhaps they even commission an artwork directly from an artist. Those things are a huge asset and value to them, and they really love to dig into that. And then in the same way, some people just feel something is aesthetically aligned with what they want and it's a simple process. They know. So we get a total mix of that for sure.

Lisa Belisle: How do people find the business that you're in? Is Powell widely known within the community, or is it something that's kind of word of mouth?

Phoebe Cole: The greater Boston community, absolutely. Powell is very, very well known. Hadley and the rest of our team are super well connected, which is great. It's been fun for me to dig back into that Boston community. And then in terms of up here more in the northeast, that's part of what I'm looking to build and have been building, expanding our artist network and gallery network up here. It's been great to introduce Powell to perhaps some galleries who we haven't worked with before or other avenues.

Lisa Belisle: You originally are from Maine. You grew up in Damariscotta, and then you went away and spent time elsewhere, and I believe most recently New York, made the decision to come back again not too long ago, 2021. How has that been for you?

Phoebe Cole: It's been really great. I went to school in Boston and then spent about seven years in New York working in the arts. And that's an experience that I wouldn't really trade for anything. It was so great. I worked with some amazing organizations there and really cut my teeth, in a sense. But coming back has been a real change. I grew up in the mid coast, so now I'm in Portland. That's a big change. And there's so much in Portland. And I'm here with my partner who's never lived in Maine before, so it's fun to explore and come at it from his lens. So that's different than someone who's spent a good amount of their life here.

Lisa Belisle: Where's your partner from?

Phoebe Cole: He's from Rhode Island.

Lisa Belisle: So are you hearing any either differences or similarities between the two states?

Phoebe Cole: Oh, I don't know. I think there's the classic New England, oh, the drivers are this or that. There's some fun things like that. And then I think he's enjoying just a little more snow, a little more weather than they get down in Rhode Island.

Lisa Belisle: And what caused you to make the decision to move back here?

Phoebe Cole: We've been thinking about it on and off, me because it's just the draw of Maine. It's where I'm with a lot of family, as well as friends here. For him, a job cemented the move. So that transition felt natural from there. And I also shifted my career to be more New England centric.

Lisa Belisle: When I was a medical student, and actually I think a resident too, I spent time at Miles Memorial in Damariscotta, and I'm sure that things in that area have changed somewhat, but probably not a lot. I mean, it's a really interesting community because it's close-knit. It's got people who have been there a long time, and people who are relatively new to the area. There's actually a very strong, from my perception, very strong undercurrent of appreciation for the arts in different ways. And I'm wondering how your experience growing up in that town and getting your education in that area influenced your decision to go into the arts.

Phoebe Cole: Definitely. I agree it's an incredible community. I think community is such a strong thread there. That was something I took away a lot from my time there and also was part of what was drawing me back. And you're also right, there's a ton of really great arts organizations, a lot of nonprofits, which again is a lot of work that I've done as well. So I think there's just a really collaborative spirit as well in terms of the different organizations. And growing up I knew that the arts was something I wanted to do. I don't think I fully understood that I was interested in the business of art until I got to college. And that was a shift. But I took a lot of photography courses, I did work at the Maine Media Workshops. There were just so many. It's rich for people who want to learn. And even now, I always think about how Maine is just such a place where people come for artist residencies and there are organizations that provide Maine as a space for people to create. So that's one thing that I just love so much and I think was formative when I was growing up.

Lisa Belisle: For me, Damariscotta has always been kind of intriguing because there's such a rich Native American presence that still is felt in that area. I think there's the midden that I never got a chance to, or maybe it's middens that—

Phoebe Cole: Many middens actually. And oysters are a huge part of the culture there too. It's become more and more, and it's really interesting to think about a creature but also a food source that's been so prevalent for such an incredible amount of time. I agree. It's a beautiful place and you understand why people have lived there for generations and generations.

Lisa Belisle: And the middens are basically enormous mounds of discarded shells.

Phoebe Cole: Right. Shell middens, shell heaps, people also sometimes call them. It's on the side of a riverbank, you can just see these stacks and stacks and stacks of them, which represent a huge amount of oysters eaten over time. And we still do have wild Damariscotta oysters, and it's a cool place to be. The Tidal River is a gorgeous part of the state.

Lisa Belisle: It's such an interesting kind of connection to the past, and it's still kind of present. We're still eating oysters from this river and we're still eating oysters that people were eating many, many years ago. And that connection to the past is more prevalent, I think, just by virtue of having that visual reminder than in other places, perhaps.

Phoebe Cole: No, I think that's definitely true.

Lisa Belisle: So in a way that's an maybe inadvertent public art that has been put there at the middens, and I know that public art actually is something that you have an interest in yourself.

Phoebe Cole: Definitely. So when I was in New York, I worked at Art Production Fund, which is a great nonprofit whose mission is rooted in helping to fund, commission and produce ambitious public art projects. So that was a really fabulous experience in public art, understanding the scope of the work and basically, soup to nuts, the whole process of commissioning. And so now being back in Maine, I'm working with the Portland Public Art Committee, which has been great, and really enjoying understanding, okay, what is our collection of public art and how can we move it forward and expand it and really get some beautiful work that is so accessible. I think that's the thing I love the most about public art is the accessibility, the moment that artists get to make a piece that really is seen, it's seen by so many, and so often it becomes part of maybe your daily commute if you're walking along the Eastern Prom or other public spaces. So it's like the middens, it's these landmarks. They become these parts of our daily lives, which I feel is how art should be. So it's fun to see it really in practice, in public art.

Lisa Belisle: Do you have any favorite pieces that are currently in the greater Portland area?

Phoebe Cole: One of my absolute favorites is a recent acquisition into the Portland public art collection. And that is called Gathering Stones by sculptor Jesse Salisbury. It's beautiful. It's on the Eastern Promenade, it's on Fish Point, and it's these carved stones in really organic forms that are placed around each other. And they interact and they invite you to interact, to sit on them, to lie on them, to rest on them. You could eat your lunch on one as a table. So it's another way that public art is just so engaging, because you can often interact with it in a way that a piece on the wall is harder to do. And so that was actually going to be just a temporary installation, put up by TEMPOart, which is a great nonprofit in Portland that helps make temporary art. And then, because it was just such a beloved project, it was acquired by the city, so it's great and it will be permanent now. So it's probably one of my favorites at the moment, but it's also new, so that's exciting as well.

Lisa Belisle: So I love hearing about a favorite that became even more of a favorite and became permanent. And conversely, I know public art is sometimes not always as well received as the people who are putting it into place have intended it to be.

Phoebe Cole: Oh, that's so true. That is such a part of public art, which I'm a total nerd about because it's interesting. Best laid plans, you can always create something and the public can take something totally different. And that's true for all artists. You create something, you put it out in the world, you hope the reaction or the meaning is what you intended, but at the end of the day, you can't control it. And public art puts that on the big screen for sure. But I think I always feel aligned with doing my research, understanding the artist's intent, and I think the public will always be the public. We see it all the time, the reactions that people get from anything whenever you put something out in the world. So I'm always interested to see people's reactions and what becomes beloved art and what becomes something that transforms a little bit because of the public's opinion. So it's its own back and forth game.

Lisa Belisle: Well, and it is different from the work that you do typically, at least in the art consulting space, that is a smaller group of stakeholders that are engaged in something that is probably more private. And there's some back and forth amongst, perhaps if you have a couple that's looking to put a piece in their home, then that's a little different than—

Phoebe Cole: Definitely.

Lisa Belisle: The stakeholders in a community that are probably more broadly varied and have definitely differing versions of what they like.

Phoebe Cole: Absolutely. And the checks and balances and the approval, there's a lot you have to go into, especially when something's a commission. It's going through so many phases of planning. So I think it's interesting to see the combination of even something sometimes that goes through so many eyes once it gets into the public sphere, becomes something new entirely, and a different facet of it is brought to light. So as tricky as it can be, it's ever changing. And I find it interesting to think through those problems. It definitely is a contrast to the other work that I do.

Lisa Belisle: I'm thinking about this idea that if you're an artist and you're trying to stay true to your work, but you also need to make a living off of your art, there's always this inherent conflict. Are you doing art that is meant to sell? Or are you doing art that you want to do, but you hope will sell? And that ongoing interplay between those two ideas, is that something that you have ever seen manifest in ways that you wouldn't expect?

Phoebe Cole: Definitely. Actually a good example of that, it's back to the public art idea, is that I think there are so many artists who I'd love to see make public art that don't necessarily do it in a way that is as durable, or the fabrication that they usually utilize isn't suitable for sculptures that would need to be outside or anything that needs to be in the public eye. But we can change, we can adapt. When artists can translate their idea into other bigger things and still, it's that same challenge. They still need to stay true to what their vision is, but how do you translate it into sculpture versus a two-dimensional painting, or bringing things into another medium. So I think as long as, well, it's tricky. There's no magic sauce to it, there's no secret recipe. But I think when artists stick with what they know and what they love and find new and innovative ways to further it, that usually brings success, I find.

Lisa Belisle: Having talked to people over the years about the idea of commissions, I've heard varying interest in the topic. Some artists love to do commissions, some artists will never, ever do commissions. There have been some very successful commissions done for individuals, let's just say, or even public art, and then conversely the other can be true. What happens when you're engaged, let's say you're doing work with Powell and some is commissioned, you're proceeding along a path and the end result is not what the person who is paying for it expected?

Phoebe Cole: Well, I think the thing to highlight there is going through Powell or going through an organization with folks that you trust and folks who are well versed in what they're doing, and also have great relationships with either galleries or artists, because that's where you can always have the space to turn something around like that. Whether it's something, people start changing their mind, maybe we'll put something on pause. We're here to be that intermediary and to help just make it smooth sailing as much as you can. And you're right, sometimes things don't work out. We all know that that's life. But I think as long as you are working with good people who have your best interests in mind and are there to help navigate whatever comes up from a commission like that, then you're in the right place.

Lisa Belisle: Phoebe, do you have any artists from any of the Maine art galleries that you've recently become interested in and that you've put in your visual rolodex as you referred to it?

Phoebe Cole: Definitely. So earlier this year, I went to a lovely breakfast put together by Portland Art Gallery for an artist, Bibby Gignilliat, and she's from California, I think it was. It might have been in honor of her first show with Portland Art Gallery. And she was lovely. We met. It was really great conversation, saw the work. Didn't have anything that it was right for at the time, but kept it in mind. And then recently we had a client who was really interested in mixed media. And that's different. We get a lot of painting, photography, works on paper, but mixed media is a really interesting and specific thing to look for. And immediately Bibby's work came to mind, and it's just really fresh. She's not a trained artist. It doesn't look like a lot of other work that I'd seen lately. So we shared it with a client and they ended up really loving it. And so that was a really fun one to just, okay, I remember seeing this. Let's pull it out. Let's dust it off and think about this in a fresh way for a different client.

Lisa Belisle: So in this case, it was specifically the idea of looking for something that was mixed media that sent you in the direction of connecting.

Phoebe Cole: Yes, in this case it was, and it wasn't a request from the client. We just found that they preferred that, that was what they were gravitating towards. So it was a challenge of, all right, let's find some work that aligns in that way.

Lisa Belisle: When you first start working with a client, do you maybe do a walk through their house or their business or have them flip through their art catalog so that you get a sense of what types of whether they like oils or pastels or whatever it is that they are traditionally collecting?

Phoebe Cole: Yes, I think it totally depends on the client, their comfort level, if they have an existing collection. There's such a range. What their goals are, what they're looking to do. Are they just looking to place a painting in a certain place, or are they building and developing a collection? Are they reframing work? There's so much to it, but often, yes, it does revolve around the home. People want art in places they get to see and they can really love. And the conversations are pretty natural, I think, in terms of what people are interested in. And often people will share, oh, I love this. Oh, I've seen this before. This is cool. Or my friend has this and I really love it, but I'm looking for something different. It's easy to pull people's preferences as you have a conversation.

Lisa Belisle: I know a significant part of what you do is actually working with artists. And as a photographer yourself and someone who has an arts background, I'm sure that that skill comes in handy because I think it is probably fairly difficult. I'm just guessing, I am not a visual artist myself, to be creating something that you put out in the world. Other people are judging, either they buy it, they don't buy it. So are there things about your own background and creation that have enabled you to have a perspective and an empathy that is useful in your work with artists?

Phoebe Cole: I think it is. I grew up in a really creative family. My mom does art, she's also a graphic designer, so I've always thought about art as something that is integrated into life and integrated into business. And I see it in a lot of places. So I do think following that thread has helped me. And I come at things, I hope, with a creative sensibility, so that makes a difference too. I think you can always, if you get too pragmatic about things, you have to keep that creative energy flowing. And that's what I find in working with artists is they always bring such an incredible energy and I just get along really well with that. So I think that's always been something that's kept the energy flowing and it just feels good for me to work with artists. I love sharing artists' work. I love getting it out there. I love finding new people who love it. Those things are just really enjoyable to me.

Lisa Belisle: As you're working with less developed artists, let's say ones who are earlier on in their career, do you feel you're able to help them with perspective that enables them to continue to move forward perhaps more successfully?

Phoebe Cole: I hope so. One thing I hope to always bring to those sorts of conversations or meetings or studio visits is just a lot of perspective. Having worked in a lot of different facets of the arts, having an interest in public art, working in nonprofits, that has expanded my view of the creative community a huge amount. So I hope I can help extend that and open up that, you know, it's not just you make something, you sell something. There's so much more than that, and a lot of artists know that, but especially early in your career, to see that expansiveness, I hope, is heartening.

Lisa Belisle: Well, I've very much enjoyed our conversation today and learned a lot about, particularly really the public art side of things that I don't think a lot of us spend a lot of time considering when we think about art. So I appreciate your willingness to come in and speak with me today.

Phoebe Cole: Thanks so much. I really enjoyed the conversation as well. Thanks for having me.

Lisa Belisle: I'm Dr. Lisa Belisle. You have been listening to or watching Radio Maine today. I've had in the studio with me art consultant Phoebe Cole. I hope that our paths will cross again in the future.

Phoebe Cole: I do as well. Thanks so much.

Lisa Belisle: Thank you.